Discussing abortion in work

[Thurlow]

Girl in our office (dozen people, mostly in their 30s, men and women) has just started a conversation about abortion. Came from the gender selection law that is being considered at the moment - she wanted to know more about it. We all chatted and I said that I imagined it would be hard to police as you don't really have to give any detailed explanation of why you want an abortion anyway. Girl then went on a bit of a rant about how shocking she thought it was that you can basically just get an abortion on demand. She's from the RoI, which I guess will influence her views. She wasn't exactly anti abortion, just clearly thinks it shouldn't be easy to achieve.

One of the other guys clearly picked up from how I was explaining the process that I've had one, and tried to calm the girl down a bit. But she was very strident. I wish I'd said something more now but, you know, it's work, and I didn't want to get too wound up on a Monday morning at 10.30...

Anyway, I can't help thinking maybe there are better times and places to talk about potentially sensitive issues like abortion (or god knows how many other emotive topics) than in an office full of people whose backgrounds and personalities you don't really know?

This has annoyed me this morning

I can see how that topic could snowball. It went from unemotional 'how would this law work' as a group, to 'this is what I think of abortions rant' by her only.

Not professional on her part, but I think it's probably best to just keep out of anything contraversial at work.

Are you annoyed because of her views (but you know there's people with all sorts of views on this and they won't all agree with you. Seems a bit pointless being annoyed that someone holds a different view) or annoyed because of the way the conversation turned into a nasty one? If the latter, then could her supervisor or senior staff member have a quiet word with her about leaving her politics/personal views on contraversial matters at home.

Well you helped the conversation along OP so IMO you are just as bad.

I'm not sure why I'm annoyed - possibly because it did seem to suddenly come out of the blue when I wasn't expecting it at work!

Did she start the convo or did she just gave an opinion during it, because thats not clear from your posts? You do seem to have encouraged and prolonged the discussion though, so its not entirely her thing.

You could argue that it is a thing that should be discussed more, that its too hidden and that makes it a shameful secret thing that doesn't help anyone. I'd say work isn't the place for it, but I don't object to the subject matter itself.

Woman, not girl, btw.

she did not agree with you, entitled to do that. She was not aware you had had an abortion, not her fault

She was foolish to air such controversial views at work. 1 in 3 women have had a termination so statistically she would have been speaking to at least 1 person who'd had one. I am from N.I and have had 2 (both in England). I tend not to broadcast the fact but then I hate myself for turning it into a 'shameful secret' when in fact it is a very common experience of being a woman.

OP I think I can understand where you are coming from.

The conversation began along lines that you might reasonably expect to discuss in your line of work, as you say you work with news/law, and it had come up in that context.

Then it took a personal and critical turn and she wouldn't stop even after someone else had tried to calm her down. Which is that part that bothered you.

And so it looks like she only raised the issue so she could air her strong views on it to the rest of you.

She didn't know your past history, but it's fair to say that in a workplace you are surrounded by people you spend a majority of your time with, but despite the amount of time you spend with them, you probably don't know them all that well.

So it's sensible really to try and stay off contentious subjects like this, as you never know what the person sitting next to you has experienced.

Had the conversation stayed within the limits of what you might normally discuss in work it wouldn't have mattered, it's the branching off into airing an unrelenting personal opinion that has caused the problem.

It's not the disagreeing at all. I know plenty of people will disagree with any decision to terminate, I also know people who would very much disagree with my personal decision. Each to their own.

I was annoyed then, less so now. Clearly IABU to be annoyed about that particular comment.

It was more - there are some topics that are quite controversial to discuss in a setting with people you don't know too well. I appreciate it might sounds weird that the topic had even come up vaguely in our office but we do work in that sector and do, as a team, generally chat quite a bit about current affairs (as we spend a lot of the day looking at news stories).

So say there'd be a conversation about the church agreeing there can now be women bishops, and someone decided to say "of course, anyone who believes in God is an idiot". Or a conversation about NHS funding problems and someone said "the biggest problem is clearly the NHS funding all these made up disabilities like X and Y".

IMO, comments like that are sensitive, or unreasonable, to give in a group of people you don't know particularly well. Like some others have said, politics, religion and money - never good topics for general conversation.

I think most people would agree (and have here) that the topic was NSFW.

But that still begs the question of why you prolonged and encouraged the conversation?

I didn't prolong and encourage it

I mean, I could try and go back and write a transcript of the full conversation if that helps. But one person asked if anyone knew what the proposed new law was about. Someone else explained. Another few people chipped in. In context of a question from another colleague, I said that doctors don't often ask for a detailed reason. This lead to original woman making her comments.

It was a general conversation, amongst a group of people who were all talking non-personally, and then one person decided to give her personal opinion. That was the point of my AIBU, really.

But thats simply how conversations work. And I doubt it was as neutral as you think in the first place.
Either a topic is suitable for work or it isn't. It's a bit much to say a topic is perfectly fine as long as the conversation fits your exact specifications, then she's being totally unreasonable by dint of a natural continuation of the same conversation.

and if she doesn't like the laws in the UK, why doesn't she fuck off back to ROI?

Well I don't agree with her either, but I think this kind of thing is vile. It's not necessary for people to always have the same views.

I think it depends on your work place. If it's unusual and overly personal for yours then YANBU.

In my place of work we talk about anything and everything. I spend most of my waking hours at work and my colleagues are good friends. We talk about serious and topical issues all the time and it's fine for people to disagree vehemently with each other. So, if it's like that, then YABU.

Sunny the law in the UK isn't that you can have an abortion on demand but in fact that is how it often works according to many people, so your comment is unreasonable as why shouldn't she expect the law to be applied as it was written? Even the old liberal party leader who introduced the bill, can't remember his last name but think his first name was David, says the time limit should be reduced, he is also against gender selection abortion and has made some comments about women having multiple abortions, can't remember the exact words but he seemed to disapprove of it.

David Steel, I should remember as I was a teenager at the time and it was a big topic of discussion in 1967.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2344225/Abortion-used-contraceptive-says-Lord-Steel-father-1967-act-legalised-practice.html This is a link to what he said, sorry its the Daily Mail, it was the first one to come up when I searched. I was amazed at the figures, 76 women I think having the 8th abortion in 2011. I have never had an abortion but I can't imagine it is something you would want to do 8 times, I wouldn't want to go through 8 pregnancies and labours either but that's what contraception is for, isn't it?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/17/david-steel-interview-sorry-for-nick-clegg A different interview where he talks about women having repeat abortions being feckless but on the other hand thinks it should be abortion on demand.

I don't think it is a good idea to talk about this sort of thing at work and don't think people should be judgemental on either side.

Why should anyone care what that man (or any) has to say about abortions?

Well he was the person who introduced the bill and got it made law, who knows if or when it would have been legalised without him.

that was a long time ago, someone else would have done it, and his opinions are worth no more or less than any other mans. None of his, or your, business how many abortions any woman has.

Granny, you say people shouldn't be judgemental but you kind of are, in your comments about how often people should have one and about contraception?

I see what you're saying, manic. We do have conversations that might seem a little on the nose or off-work for some workplaces, but in the year or so I've been here this is the first time that anyone has given a personal opinion. It's been surprisingly non-personal to date.

I'm not judging them, just think it awful for them to need to go through that eight times. Maybe I am just a coward, I did say I wouldn't want to go through the 8 pregnancies either so that is why I think contraception would be my choice. I know any contraceptive can fail but eight times does seem alot, don't you think.

Countessmarkyabitch, if the law isn't being followed it is everyones business and it is relevant when people are saying this woman should leave the country if she doesn't like the law when the law doesn't allow abortion on demand.

I think the whole thing needs to be clarified, if the majority want abortion on demand the law needs changing not for it to be on a nod and a wink from medical people.

Actually, I disagree. The more the subject of termination is silenced, the more taboo it becomes.

Shame needs a culture of silence to thrive - if we take away the secrecy and code of silence that exists around women's reproductive rights, then (hopefully) the guilt and shame that surrounds this subject will lessen as we accept a woman's right to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy as being a perfectly valid one.

I can't help but feel that the more we buy into this idea that termination is NSFW, the more we tacitly agree to our own oppression by the patriarchy.

I hope one day we have a culture like that which exists in Canada where there are no laws around womens' reproductive choices. One where women can just visit their GP and have a termination whenever, wherever and for whatever reason they choose.

Its none of anyone else's business.

but in the year or so I've been here this is the first time that anyone has given a personal opinion. It's been surprisingly non-personal to date.

BatteryPoweredHen, that is true but it could be a bit disruptive to the working day. It can be a minefield, when I was pregnant at 40 I worked in a place where people actually said to me that women like me were costing the country too much money as I would probably have a disabled child. I didn't mention I had turned down amnio after I told a close colleague and she got angry and told me I had no choice, I had to have it. A friend of mine, same age, worked in a different environment and she didn't tell them she was having amnio as she would have got flack, well she thought she would I suppose we will never know for sure.

I was shocked at the amount of venom I got about it. It had never occurred to me that people worked out the cost of other peoples children like that. I didn't go back after maternity leave.

My friend did go back to her job but she was adamant she would have had a rough time if people knew she had amnio.

Our offices were less than a mile apart but could have been a million miles.

Agree it was unacceptable to discuss at work but you we also doing that; you say you chatted. Presumably you would not have posted on here if her opinions were the same as yours as they would not have upset you. Therefore you are essentially complaining that her valid opinion on a matter differs from your own which is pretty ridiculous IMO.

Your complaining is ridiculous not your opinion obv.

Sorry countess, I'm starting to feel like I really ought to send you a transcript of our working conversations, would that be better?

That's a very good point, Battery. It's a hard one though, isn't it? I completely agree that marking some things as NSFW keeps an element of shame around the whole experience. But then on the other hand some things are very emotive, and not entirely the conversation you should have at work, say, or at a dinner party where you don't really know anyone. I imagine it would be like if I gave out a strong opinion on something like the Liverpool Pathway - yes, it is best if we can talk about these things as adults and take away any secrecy, but it does run the risk of upsetting someone.