To not understand why the tidy person is always 'right'

[SEmyarse]

I'm a scruff. Maybe that's a bad thing, I don't know, but that's how it is.
Dh likes things neat and tidy, and that's fine too. He's the majority stay at home parent so mostly things go his way.

I find it very very difficult to give a stuff what the house looks like, but I really do try not to impact others. So I never leave washing up long enough that it will impact someone else being able to use the kitchen for instance, but I may well leave pots for a couple of hours and do them late in the evening or even early the next morning. If he wants my stuff out of the way he only has to say and I will drop everything and get it sorted, but its not usually my way to be right onto it. Mostly dh will sneak into the kitchen and do it himself which makes me feel guilty if its only my mess, but equally I don't like being dictated to that it must be done right then if there's no need.

I like to have stuff around. Dh gets very cross with this and is permanently tidying my stuff. He got very arsey last night that i had left a book I was reading, and some newly opened post on the dining table. So he tidied my book (and lost the page). I was hunting all over for it, and when I found it in the bookcase I was bloody annoyed, I'd only put it down for half an hour. So I had a bit of a moan at him, and he got all 'the dining table is for dining, the bookcase is for books'. I really don't like being dictated to as to how I should use our joint furniture. If I want to use a surface to put stuff on, then I will.

Well, it turned into a bit of a minor row. He thinks no-one should complain since he does all this tidying, but it's unnecessary and not even always wanted. I like to have a bit of stuff around. I'm not talking piles of rubbish, but I do like a few books around, a jumper, some work bits etc, it feels much nicer. i also like the kids to be able to have things around, but they can't bring toys out of their (very small) bedrooms before he starts dropping hints that its time to tidy away. And if they leave drawings etc around he immediately bins them. Sometimes they have been given to me as a gift and I've put them down ready to display and before I've got chance they've been binned.

His argument is that we should compromise, but I already am! When living on my own my house was miles messier than this. He also says that tidy is a good thing. I understand this concept, but I don't think it has to be absolute. As long as things are reasonably clean then I don't think 'super tidy' is any better than 'reasonably tidy' and is just an extra waste of effort, and makes the home feel completely non-homely to me.

OP like you I couldn't live under this pressure, my BIL is like this, if I go round and take up an offer of a drink, the cup is whipped away and washed up by the time I am 2/3 of the way through the drink. Nothing is ever out of place and everything is washed up and put away immediately.

My DH is tidier than me naturally but after many years we have reached a compromise where he just leaves my stuff or puts it in a pile to be dealt with later, if he moved my post from the dining room table or closed a book I was reading he would not get off lightly

The work thing is complicated because in theory he agrees. But he hates his job and wouldn't want to go back to full time there (he originally did up to 70 hours there when I was sahm), but he gets a very high hourly rate that he would be unlikely to get elsewhere. I wouldn't want him to go back to full time there either, it made him utterly miserable, but in real terms if he went full time elsewhere he probably wouldn't earn much more, so I agree that would be pointless.

I'm just getting irritated by his stance of not even looking since he 'needs' to be at home for dd2.

I understand mess makes some people anxious, but don't agree with that impacting everything. A family house looks lived in, some people and their controlling/OCD/dictatory nature are probably best off living by themselves if they can't understand that. DCs playing in their room, drawing binned, pouncing on a book as soon as you've put it down etc..its ridiculous. Your DH will use his housework obsession (he must do it because YOU won't do it well enough) to not pay attention to other things he should be doing - like going out to work for more than 12 hours weekly!! My ex was like this - tidiness trumped everything. He'd let work, leisure hobbies, everything slide. & he grew worse over the years. He's long gone, thank God. Current OH has super-tidy tendencies too but he's learned to let go...its hard to live with someone you can't relax with as they've always got to jump up and find something to do in the house.

Your DH needs to learn to compromise, just as you have. A good compromise would be to find a job. Can you imagine if he doesn't, then you have to put up with his tidiness fixation for years on end, with him believing thats an achievement that matters more than everything else? When the house is super-tidy he still will put his focus on maintaining that. & he will probably make your DCs anxious too. Is there anybody else close to the 2 of you who could have a wo

Are you my friend? Her husband throws stuff away if he finds it lying about. Her necklace she's just taken off, ditto scarf, dds hair clips, head bands, anything. She's had to fish her own possessions out of the bin before. I'd have throttled him by now, the twat.

*word

Throws it away? That's not ok. How can she live like that?

The thing is, in some ways I don't even think he's that crazily tidy. There's a hell of a lot of stuff on this desk, not even that neat tbh, but because its supposed to be on this desk he's fine with that. Again, the bookcase is somewhat higgledy-piggledy, but because its all books, he's fine with that.

The kitchen is super super clean, and the floors are also very clean always, which I'm fine with and very grateful he does it.

The issues come about when something is 'not where its supposed to be'. He would totally go for the idea that I have a box for all my stuff, but I really object to giving myself arbitrary rules that I have to abide by. I don't have a lot of stuff (just how I am, much less than him) and I want to be able to use my things as I wish without constantly having to think about where they're put. it seems reasonable to me to start reading a book, realise I'm too hot so take off my jumper and drape it on the back of the chair, put down the book to answer the phone and come back to find the book still there and not get a jumper waved at me saying 'do I need to wash this or is it going back in your wardrobe?' I really don't want to have to scoop everything in a box because I've gone out of the room for 20 mins.

That's fair enough, and to be fair, I don't so that when dh has just gone to do something else for half an hour. It's more when he's got stuff strewn everywhere but isn't using it or isn't even in the house

I can understand that you'd feel possibly compartmentalised in the situation you describe.

Dh actually like the box system though

The compromise is to demand certain tables / floors / whatever that are free to be as messy as you want in that area, so you just need to make sure the book is put on the table. Have you tried that?

I would find it hard to live with a total slob and I do think some order is better than chaos, for your mental wellbeing. But I would also hate to live with an obsessively anal tidy-awayer. That would be equally stressful in a different way.

It's all about finding a sensible balance. 'Tidy' is better, and 'right' because 'everything in its place and a place for everything' makes for a smoother, easier existence and saves on a lot of unnecessary stress, looking for lost things, having no clean knickers/cutlery, missed deadlines, overlooked bills etc. But being too obsessive about it is horribly controlling and undermining and can make the people around you feel permanently on tenterhooks, which is a bit crap if they happen to live with you.

I am not naturally tidy, but as dc's got older, everyone having the habit of leaving books and papers and clothes on the nearest horizontal surface when not needed for the moment very quickly became an impossible mess. One person can bear their own mess and clutter, but everyone's mess mixed up together is very stressful. It multiplies faster than you would think, and makes life harder. Things get broken, lost, re-claimed by someone and then argued about. Library fines acrue, school forms are returned late, invitations not responded to.

i agree, his ultra stress about this is probably related to his upcoming life transition. Been there done that. my advice is that this is a transition everyone in the house will have to make. It should include, on your side, fresh expectations of the dcs and yourself re: clutter avoidance responsibilities & on his side, a fresh acceptance that he will have to be content with varying levels of tidyness throughout the house, throughout the week/month.

He needs a space he can expect everyone to respect the tidiness of, though he has to tolerate others inclination to leave it to the agreed deadline and not step in. You/the dc need space in the communal area where he has to respect your put it here for now habit up to certain time/space limit. And everyone needs their own own private spaces, even just a nightstand, that nobody else can interfere with unless it is an actual health and safety hazard.

So, the compromise questions are:

where can items in transition be, how much and how long? Where do books you are reading, mail, papers and childrens art and cardigans you might need go? For us such places are end tables in the lounge, a particular kichen spot, a table or shelf in the entry, dining room sideboard, in-boxes or baskets on a shelf or desk.

Conversely,
How high is too high to pile things in those spots? How long is too long to leave items in transition? Do you have a tidy time each day/week during which things in transition are actually dealt with? (he shouldnt expect the areas to be cleared, just that the piles dont stagnate or begin spreading and multiplying. That the dc learn to actually process their clutter before it is overwhelming is more important than putting it away immediately, which can become hiding rather than handling.)

Meanwhile, What areas have strict rules?

Must the kitchen be tidy by bedtime? (My mother's stress point)
Should the front hall be the launch pad, and things there kept in predictable locations to speed exits, not left where they fall? (My spouse's stress point)
Does everyone deserve a clean bathroom/so everyone must tidy after use? (My own)
Even you have a place or category you hate to find messy when you need it.

I think he's got too much time to spend thinking about being tidy and should increase his hours of work so he's forced into relaxing about books on sofas etc. To pick up a book that you are reading and put it in the bookcase is daft. And I say that as someone who likes thing tidy.

I've not read any comments yet but if I'm honest, you don't sound scruffy to me.

My flat is always neat and tidy. But, I have set times when I do things. The living room is cleared once the baby is asleep, kitchen usually cleaned in the early hours before I go to bed, or sometimes the next day if I've been studying until particularly late. If I'm reading a book, it's not put back in the book case until I'm done. When I've got a bin bag ready to go out, it stays where it is until DD (10mo) is either asleep or sufficiently occupied that I can nip to the bins with it.

These things don't get done immediately but they don't pile up to scruff levels and the flat stays tidy.

My DM was like your DH while I was a child/teen living with her. It really feels like you're unwelcome in your own home. Even now if I'm at hers, she often cleans my coffee cup before I'm done with my drink. And she's been told in no uncertain terms that if she ever feels the need to comment on a few dishes next to the sink, she can either do them herself without complaint, keep her mouth shut, or leave. (We do have a very good relationship so can chat like that to each other without causing offense).

And I know I'm not deluded about my flat being clean and tidy because even neat freak DM says it is. She just wants things done immediately and I'm not the type of person who feels that need.

Well, I don't think the tidy person is always right. But the less tidy person isn't always right either. There must be room for compromise. Clutter makes me anxious, so I couldn't stand to live in a house with piles of stuff everywhere. OTOH, it is entirely reasonable to put down the book one is reading and expect that it will be there to return to later in the day.

Your DH seems to have some odd ideas about tidiness. The fact that you connect it with his reluctance to work outside the home is interesting. Perhaps he has come to believe (unconsciously?) that tidying the house is his job, and by pouring his energy into that "job" he is justifying not looking for outside employment. If the house is already quite clean and tidy, he has to make additional "work" for himself to continue that justification. So he takes things to an absurd level by tidying up the children's toys when they are still playing, moving your book to the bookcase, etc.

For his own sake, as well as for the sake of your relationship and family harmony, it sounds as though he needs to find something else to occupy his time and energy. If a full-time job isn't on the cards for various reasons, and you can easily survive financially on one salary, then maybe some volunteer work or creative pursuit would be worthwhile. I can't imagine the sheer boredom of staying home with school-aged children without something beyond housework to keep oneself active and to feel productive.

dump a necklace I've left in the hall in a random drawer
Even reading that sets my teeth on edge! I can't bear not knowing where something is – so being organised is so much more important to me than being tidy.

Oh, me too! Confuddled's dh is exactly the example of someone who has learned to hide stuff in order to appear tidy. Hidden clutter is just as bad as visible clutter! Worse even!

OP, read this:

www.lightshouse.org/things-people-with-ocpd-say.html#axzz3T9jHHgqO

Does it ring any bells? Note: it's not OCD.

Totally agree with you. Being tidy isn't being in the right.

The tidy person is generally right because as a general rule, an untidy person is not stressed by tidiness, but the tidy person is stressed by unitidiness. So both can happily live with a tidy state, but only one can live happily with an untidy state.

(The OP is a bit of an exception because she is being stressed by the pressure to be tidy. Also I'm assuming that in most cases the difference between tidy and untidy it that a tidy person is happy for hour/days/weeks to elapse before something is addressed, while the tidy person will be stressed the whole time it goes unaddressed. If the untidy person doesn't think the task needs doing, ever, that's a different issue. I don't think this applies in most cases though.)

untidy person is happy for hours/days/weeks to elapse

If he goes back to work full time will he then expect you to start doing half of all the tidying he is currently doing? Just wondered if that might cause problems?

In fact OP, I'll share a situation that was caused by this issue with my DM while I was a teen...

Had gone to stay with friends overnight. My things were all in my room, which wasn't perfectly tidy but certainly wasn't a bomb site. Had a text from DM in the morning. She'd gone through my room to go outside (ground floor bedroom with patio doors to the garden which she insisted on using rather than the back door even if I was sleeping) and was unimpressed about my bedroom not being show-home standard. She actually said she'd have been embarrassed to walk through with a friend while my coursework was out, PJs were on the back of my chair etc. I was told that if I wasn't home tidying it within the hour, she'd throw everything out.

The bus journey itself was 45 minutes. The walks either side and the wait for the bus took me over the hour mark and she wouldn't answer the phone.

When I got home, my things had been thrown into the back garden. Laundry basket emptied, coursework being blown around by the wind, cosmetics all over the floor (where the dogs do their business, so not a harmless thing), dirty laundry everywhere for the neighbours to see. Some of my things had smashed, some coursework lost, jewellery lost.

I packed a large bag and left. I was gone for 6 months and she didn't know where I was.

When I was in my early twenties I worked with a couple of older women who said "Never marry a tidy man!" They were married to very tidy men and they found it stressful having to keep to those standards all the time, even though I don't think they were particularly messy themselves. I remember the husband of one of them going on a course for the weekend, and the woman saying it was so nice to be able to leave the washing up for a bit. Just so happened I married a messy man like me thankfully!

A generous interpretation would be that this excessive tidiness is his way of coping with the anxiety he feels about not having a full-time job: making you and the children obey him helps him feel that he is still The Man Of The House. But it's still selfish behaviour. It's making you and DC anxious and uncomfortable (as is his reluctance to work - even though 'just getting a job' is not as easy in the current climate as some people think).
He needs to understand that he's not in the right and not the boss, and that he will have to compromise - or move out, ultimately.

What a horrible thing for your mum to do Cupid.

Well, I like things tidy and find empty, uncluttered spaces very peaceful and calming, just how I like my hime to be. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that now DH find any uncluttered space a challenge: when he gets in, he scatters his belonging one here another there so all the spaces have something messy. Sigh.

Our compromise is that he has spaces he can clutter, i have spaces that stay clear. I had hoped to convert him, he likes to use my desk to layout stuff, since his is always cluttered.

But he is sadly unrepentant.

If i had known, i would have added tidiness to the job spec. Sigh.

I don't think the op is the exception in being stressed by the pressure to be tidy. I'd think it was quite common, especially if the tidy person was nagging you, getting angry or throwing your things away