To think the Uk Standards of beauty are suited to White people

[QueenofSouthLondon]

I have noticed as a black women that hardly any celebrities that are considered beautiful are black. In fact I can't think of one black (excluding mixed) or Asian British celebrity that is considered as beautiful by the whole nation.

Why is it that in this country we only find European features as attractive. It frustrates me as a black women that my features are not considered attractive outside my race.

So aibu to think this.

Lorriane is very beautiful.

Actually, she isn't "very black."

Look at her hair.

Beautiful lady, but she has modified and "Anglicised" her hair.

I take no issue whatsoever with her doing this but so deep is our preconception of what a "black" person looks like we barely even register when they modify something about their original appearance. You can bet that if Emma Watson had an Afro, we would notice!

In many south east Asian countries the women all want facial plastic surgery, especially to enhance their cheekbones and widen their eyes because they aspire to look like…….Koreans.

Yes the Hindu caste system had a lot to do with it. Dark skin is associated with manual outside labour and The Dalits (Untouchables), while fair skin is that of the ruling class.

That doesn't account for the attitude in mainly muslim Pakistan though. Interestingly I was reading a blog of a Western muslim converts and they were bemoaning the fact that white converts are lauded and held up as poster boys /girls while the black ones are ignored.

I think it is fair to use the argument that short, plump, ageing white women have no more in common with a white model than black women. We are told that models are beautiful and models happen to be tall and slim and young. That isn't me. We only think that clothes look better on the tall and slim because that's the message we are fed.

I think anyone outside the indusrry norm will feel unrepresented

I studied early cinema and one of the interesting aspects was about how pioneer cinematography was based on lighting white skin and white faces and those techniques persisted for decades. If you look at cinema up until the 1950s really, dark black skin registers oddly and I suppose that's why the leading black actresses were very light skinned eg Dorothy Dandridge and Lena Horne.

This is no consolation but in my humble opinion many Asian women (caveat 1 - I have only been to a small number of places in Asia caveat 2 I have never had the opportunity to visit Africa which I am sure has similar) are the most effortlessly beautiful women on the planet. When I say effortless I am ignoring a prevalence for henna colouring, threading, nose piercing and gak whitening creams but there were just so many stunning women where ever I turned.

There can be no doubt white beauty is a poster child in this part of the world.

I would disagree that Cheryl Fernandez is beautiful! She is too thin and often looks really anxious in photos. I do agree that Alek Wek is stunning. One of the reasons I like to shop with Gudrun Sjoden rather than Boden is her diversity of models - she shows that beauty isn't constrained by age or race.

No, leading actresses were paler because we did and still do hold black women to white standards of beauty.

"Frizzy" hair for example - never a positive adjective. Things are changing, but very slowly.

turquoise When I said 'very black' I meant her skin tone and her features. There is no visible hint of fairness or a possible mixed race heritage there. Her hair is very black, I'd imagine, when she chooses not to relax it.

If she's chosen to modify and 'anglicise' her hair (along with just about every other black woman or mixed under 40 in the UK in the last 10-15 years who can afford to do so) then that is merely a matter of fashion and personal choice and it will pass. Afro hair will be big again, for black women and for the white women wishing to emulate them. It has happened before and it will happen again, in fact it already is happening - look at Fleur East and Lupita as obvious examples.

Don't misinterpret black women 'anglicising' their hair (whatever the hell that means ) as them trying to 'conform' a white person's ideal. I'm sure they just fancy a style change every twenty years or so, as much as the next woman. Much like all the white women who've got curly perms over the years. I think we can be in danger of over-thinking these things and looking for a sign that black women must all have low self esteem for being black. Which is incredibly patronising.

bullhockey. Nobody is attractive to a whole nation, what a bizarre idea. "everyone says Cheryl whatserface is attractive"..... no they don't!

Are less black people featured in the likes of Top 10 Hotties or whatever? Yes. One reason being that there are an awful lot less black people in the UK than white, so it would be off if it weren't.

Around 3% of the UK population identified as black british in the 2011 census. Why would you expect them to be represented as more than 3% of the most attractive people? And since you are for some reason discounting anyone of mixed heritage or with features you don't deem black enough, you can be even less surprised.

Now, if you want to have a discussion about cultural standards of beauty, thats one thing. But you're starting out here from an illogical argument and then muddying it further.

muslim women convert Many white women expressed concern their conversion is "treated as a ‘victory’" by heritage Muslims, something which they resent because it values them for the "colour of their skin" rather than for their standing as Muslims.

"A white convert is seen as a trophy and she is figuratively given pride of place on the mantle-piece of the Muslim household. This, it is reported, is not the case with non-White converts to Islam," the report said.

"The silent conversions of African-Caribbean female converts do, as a result, go unnoticed and they are made to remain invisible as if they were socially unworthy."

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For a lot of Pakistani muslim families the only consolation factor if their sons marry English women is that at least the grand kids will have 'gora rang' (white skin). They are generally horrified at the thought of their children marrying a black person, even if they are muslim.

Oh, and this post:

www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/celebrity/celebrity-galleries/2013/07/sexiest-hottest-men-of-2013 Only one black man who looks white and has white features.

I agree OP. I am a white English women who actually grew up in quite a diverse area and was surrounded by peers of different ethnicity. It isn't accurately reflected upon screen or magazines. There are some incredibly stunning black women but I feel only one or two break through, and reach bigger popularity - these women should be congratulated for their success, but it is unfair that they are so rare, and therefore easily recognised.

I also feel that while there may currently be more black women in the music scene (could still be more) there isn't enough representation of black models or actresses who get the success of their white counter parts and it is a real shame. However I feel those of Asian ethnicity suffer even worse in the west.

Yes Naomi Campbell and Jordan Dunn are black models and stunning women - but this is two black women in a long line of white models. We can name them because they are so rare and that is what the OP (I think) is getting at.

It would be nicer if more ethnicities were presented on TV and for beauty products. I know friends of different skin colour really struggle with make up (and as there are so few brands marketing themselves for darker skin tones they tend to be more expensive).

As a white woman I would love to see more diversity across advertising.

I agree with you vrtra that black women are held to white standards if beauty - sorry if my point was clumsily made. The point being that even the supposedly objective medium of photography reinforces cultural ideals.

DontDrink - I think you know exactly what that term means.

As others have repeatedly explained, black women are held to white women's standards of beauty. As such, Lorraine wears her hair long and straight.

As stated in my post, I do not think for a moment she should not be able to do this. however, in a full picture - of skin being lightened, of celebrities having their noses 'thinned', it is foolish and unwise to ignore it.

It isn't about low self-esteem any more than my choosing to wear high heels is about low self-esteem.

It is however helpful to recognise why I have felt the need to wear them and why "white" hair is repeatedly selected by black women.

YANBU.

I am Irish myself with pale skin and I remember being in Vietnam a few years ago where a number of young women commented and admired my skin colour (with the heat and humidity there my skin was more blotchy imo). I found that quite sad and then discovered that people there bleach their skin.

Skin bleaching/lightening is horrific and so damaging. its wrong that anyone should feel that they should have to do this to conform to a standard of beauty.

I spent years in London and went to school there - the African girls I was friends with at the time did not straighten their hair but roll on 20 years and all have straightened extensions.

However I feel those of Asian ethnicity suffer even worse in the west

This is true. It might also be because of Asian attitudes themselves. Being a model, actress etc isn't encouraged so there are likely fewer putting themselves forward in the first place. Asian models themselves may self typecast and veer predominantly to the Asian fashion market / media.

I find every race as beautiful and if I can do that surely magazine editors and modelling angencies can.

I think if you flick through most high end fashion magazines you will find a positive kaleidoscope of models of all races and colours. In fact I'd go so far as to say that in the UK today if you did a study of fashion magazines, TV adverts, news anchors, weather reporters, and daytime TV presenters etc., etc, and popular media as a whole you would find a significant OVER-REPRESENTATION of BME people compared to the proportion in the population as a whole. I have no idea where some of you get the idea that black women are under-represented at all. In what specific part of the media or fashion and beauty industry do you find this to be the case?

What is it you want exactly? Will you not be happy until you open a UK published magazine aimed at the typical UK woman and see that more than 50% of the women featured in it are black?

If it's feeling unattractive to the majority that concerns you, well as an overweight white woman with short fat ugly legs, a weak chin and no visible cheekbones, my look is not exactly an exalted example of beauty in the UK either.

Surely it's not that surprising that people in Europe find European features most attractive?

People don't actively choose what features they find attractive in other people. On a first look, you either appreciate the beauty in something or you don't. It's not like people are doing something wrong just for being attracted to whoever they are attracted to.

Presumably cheryl whatever is Italian/Spanish, so olive skinned, not white?

I see beautiful Black and Asian women (and girls) every day. But I don't watch television, or buy trashy magazines so I don't see 'famous' ones (don't really know any names upthread, except Naomi Campbell and Alex Wek). I see women I work with, mothers at school, women on the street, bus, supermarket etc. There are dozens of beautiful non-white women around, the majority of them round here are beautifully presented too, and look really stunning.

Lots and lots of actresses have nose jobs- Julia Roberts for one.

We're programmed in what we find attractive from a very very young age though, so if we're in contact with people unlike ourselves when tiny, we're more likely to be attracted to people unlike ourselves when adults. If we're only exposed to people of same ethnicity as very young babies, we'll find people in our own ethnicity attractive as adults.

There are still vast parts of UK that have very very small ethnic minority populations, so some children won't meet people of other ethnicities until they're older.

It goes beyond just what people find attractive for example black womens natural hairstyles are often considered unprofessional.
college.usatoday.com/2013/07/01/viewpoint-how-is-natural-african-american-hair-viewed-in-the-workplace/

I have the feeling it's because the current powerhouse countries in the world are majority white. People tend to look where the power is, and seek to emulate it.

If the perception of world power was to shift in the future to India, or China, or the African continent, I'd be willing to bet beauty standards would shift with it.

Having said that, I have also noticed a trend for mixed race, or ethnically ambiguous features becoming more trendy and desirable, and I really like that (my own DC are mixed race). I'd like to think we're coming closer together as a worldwide people of one race (human), and less divided along superficial lines.