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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

"MPs can't live on £60K a year" says Sir Malcolm Rifkind

264 replies

CFSKate · 23/02/2015 14:01

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/investigations/11429070/MPs-cant-live-on-60k-a-year-says-Sir-Malcolm-Rifkind.html

Is he being unreasonable?

OP posts:
TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 23/02/2015 22:57

Well, if £60k is unreasonable given the life and the hours, then why don't we change the life and the hours? Why don't we impose a 9-5 rule on the House of Commons so that it becomes a job that is more attractive to many? That'd mean more female MPs for a start. Someone asked way back in this thread whether all the late night votes are common in other countries - isn't there a better model out there?

And I think £60k is a lot of money and it's ludicrous to suggest that people can't live on that!

Want2bSupermum · 23/02/2015 23:54

The thing to remember is that MP's have very generous expenses so to say their salary is GBP67k a year is not their true income. If you included their expenses it would be interesting to see what their true 'salary' is.

I think the salary is very fair given the expenses it is supposed to cover. It doesn't prevent someone with no wealth from becoming an MP but at the same time the salary doesn't provide an incentive for someone who wants to become an MP just for the income.

Want2bSupermum · 23/02/2015 23:54

What are his expenses? I would be surprised if they didn't come close to GBP120-150k a year.

MrsGuyGarvey · 24/02/2015 00:11

Expenses don't count, you can't spend them on whatever you like. I think that Mp's shouldn't be allowed to do any other work while they're serving. In return I think they should earn around £150k which is what they'd earn doing a job with similar levels of responsibility etc.

Yes I know that sounds like a lot but if you want great people running our country then you need to pay them accordingly.

TooSpotty · 24/02/2015 00:15

The current allowable expenses are here:

parliamentarystandards.org.uk/IPSAMPs/Scheme/Documents/Summary%20of%20the%20Scheme.pdf

You'll see that it's no longer permissible to pay a mortgage on expenses, only associated costs of owning a home. No idea how those are decided but I assume it is bills and maintenance and maybe mortgage interest.

Oodbrain · 24/02/2015 07:15

I'd like to see restrictions put in place re extra incomes and make some rules regarding attending votes etc

The two local MPs here ( one where I live and one where I used to work) both appear to work hard. Good voting records (& we are a long way from Westminster), decent balance on expenses claims and are very involved locally.
Neither are Etonians which is nice too Grin

LuluJakey1 · 24/02/2015 07:19

Ours has been an MP for almost 20 years. Has done very nicely out of it in that time - see above. Will end up a millionaire from the London property.

AskBasil · 24/02/2015 07:48

By all accounts Denis Skinner is an exemplary constituency MP, working hard for his constituents and playing a full part in the house of commons.

And yet he only draws the average salary.

Looks like you can get really good MP's for low wages then, if you choose the right ones.

JillyR2015 · 24/02/2015 07:54

why are expenses an issue? I pay huge sums, tens of thousands a year out on expenses. Those are deducted before what I earn net is calculated and I pay tax on the balance. If I buy goods for £100 and sell them for £101 my income is £1 and I am taxed on £1. It is how every business in the country operates. Now I can see an argument for forbidding family members to work for MPs but I cannot see any argument for saying expenses of their work like employing a secretary should not be allowable.

OnIlkleyMoorBahTwat · 24/02/2015 08:24

Expenses are an issue because it means that a lot of the costs of going to work that other people pay for out taxed income such as travel are covered so 'free'.

A lot of their food bills are covered too and they get allowances for their partners and children to spend time with them in London so this applies to the whole family if they have one.

They earn more than 90% of the population so it's ridiculous to say they can't live on that income. I think the amount they get paid is about right and there are no shortage of candidates, not all of which are independently wealthy either.

Ubik1 · 24/02/2015 08:56

You can also have a duck house in your pond on expenses.

Italy has the highest paid mps in Europe. Enough said.

expatinscotland · 24/02/2015 09:18

CBA to Google, but what are their pensions?

Jollyjollysixpence · 24/02/2015 10:26

TooSpotty, just to clarify, it never was possible to claim a mortgage on expenses. You used to be able to claim the interest on your mortgage on expenses, or claim the rent. Often, the interest was less than the rent would have been.

It has now been decided that you should not profit from the expenses, and being able to claim the interest would help you profit by helping you acquire property, so now you can only claim rent (& associated costs which are bills etc). You cannot claim the interest on your mortgage now.

850Pro · 24/02/2015 10:30

60k isnt a lot of the level of job they do....

enterthedragon · 24/02/2015 10:41

I wondered when someone would raise the duck house on expenses scandle.

enterthedragon · 24/02/2015 10:44

Scandal

Sleeplessinstreatham99 · 24/02/2015 10:45

My DB has been asked to stand by one of the parties on several occasions. I know he'd be an excellent MP and I suspect rather good at ministerial roles ( wrong party so bit far fetched that idea).

However he has 3 small children, lives in London with a difficult W. it couldn't happen. He'd need to put a lot f time and effort into a no hoper seat, and then probably stand somewhere like Yorkshire where he would have some credibility. He earns c£90k now. Give that up for the uncertainty of politics and a lower salary? No way!

I also have some good friends where H has had a major political role in recent years. Frankly in their social circle he was the lowest paid person, and he was incredibly careful about expenses. I know MN Jury will shout BOLLOCKS, but without having a very successful and highly paid W who subsidised their lifestyle, he'd have given it up long ago.

I would pay MPs more, but tighten up on the rules.

Belindabelle · 24/02/2015 11:16

I have just had a look and my MP claimed over £188k in expenses last year.
131k of that was staffing costs. 23k was constituency office costs and the rest was travel, accomodation etc.

From the few I looked at the average seems to be between £160-190k

Dennis Skinner claimed £67k.

CFSKate · 24/02/2015 11:21

I can't understand what Rifkind means when he says he doesn't get a salary. Surely he gets an MP's salary? (I do think the salary should be higher so that being an MP isn't the preserve of the independently wealthy, but to say he doesn't get one at all, what's that about?)

Also what is the point of voting, they are supposed to represent their constituents, but instead some company pays them thousands, and they use influence to help them instead? How is that democracy?

So if it goes, be an MP/minister, then be a consultant, take money to influence former colleagues to change laws, it doesn't really sound much different from taking bribes.

OP posts:
TooSpotty · 24/02/2015 11:32

Jolly, of course you're right. The scandal previously, or rather the grating thing, about mortgage payments was always the capital gains on the property, and that has now been stopped.

I don't think anyone objects to the payment of staff and office expenses (assuming they are appropriate!) but my point has always been that they are supported by expenses to live in London part of the week, if they don't have a London constituency, which most don't. So talking about 67k in London is a bit of a red herring for the majority of MPs.

TooSpotty · 24/02/2015 11:35

CFSKate, no one knows what Sir Malcolm meant by no salary. Possibly no Ministerial salary. He did however get an additional 14kish for chairing the ISC, bringing his basic up to 81k.

Chunderella · 24/02/2015 13:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mothergoose98 · 24/02/2015 14:29

You would expect them to have excellent advocacy skills and use those skills to advocate on behalf of the people they represent and not just the vested interests that prop up their respective parties.
They should also hold a relevant qualification for whatever brief they are working on and not just relying on civil servants.

Politicalpanda · 24/02/2015 14:42

I've been reading this thread with interest and have decided to name change to contribute, as I don't want to out myself professionally on here.

I work closely with MPs and have done for a very long time. I've known hundreds of them in fact, and know extremely well what they do all day. I personally wouldn't want to be one; it's not a job I am drawn to, and it carries with it multiple drawbacks and some bonuses.

I am a bit taken aback by the assumption on here that most of our MPs are from very privileged backgrounds and have turned their backs on better paid work. I know they lack diversity, and a disproportionate number of them have gone to public and private school. But we do not have a House of Commons full of multimillionaires. I know clever and less clever MPs, educated and left school at 15/16, lengthy previous careers of varying types and political animals from the outset, posh and less posh MPs. Plenty of MPs think they are paid pretty well; it's the expenses regime they find stressful and worrying. Quite a lot of them might earn 67k at the end of their respective careers if not a Member, but I don't think most would think of it as a small sum. I would venture to say from my own life experience that Malcolm Rifkind is speaking from a certain part of society with certain expectations when he says how hard it is to attract people on that money, and those are the people that are already overrepresented! It is also true to say, as quite a lot of you have, that being an MP can attract money in a way that many careers don't. Not that ex-MPs don't end up on benefits sometimes, but they are the exception, not the rule.

There are lots of barriers to increasing diversity amongst MPs, and also many other reasons why people would choose not to take on the job. Campaigning and campaigning is all-consuming, and most MPs have stood in practice seats at least once before entering the House. It takes years, and a certain singlemindedness. I would say the majority of MPs share a certain outlook on life, whatever their background, and I'm not sure I can define it very well, but I think the political life without that drive and inner certainty would be unbearable. Many MPs who are more 'normal' leave after one Parliament. Family life in the job is unbelievably hard. You either barely see your family or you bring them with you; we do now have a nursery which is open late when the House sits late, but it's not ideal, and obviously doesn't solve your problems when your children are too old for it.
Marriages are strained, another reason (I'm sure finances pay a part) for many employing their partners, as it means you actually see them. You have to have a high threshold for politely enduring very dull events, and eating caterers' chicken. You have to sit through some very boring meetings.

I think that letting these salary comments mean so much is giving more credit to Rifkind's thinking than it perhaps deserves. As with expenses (still, after all these years) there are MPs who 'get' why people criticise their salaries and financial arrangements and MPs who just don't. Malcolm Rifkind doesn't seem to have 'got' it.

I have nothing at all against MPs as an entity. I see their faults and their good points. If I had any great objection to them, I wouldn't be able to do my job! But I would point out that I, like probably 95% of the staff that work with them, earn less than an MP, and probably will for the indefinite future given that our pay and progression is now more or less frozen. I am highly qualified, intelligent, and could probably have earned more in a different career, as could many of my colleagues, some of whom even have Oxford PPE degrees. We have to live entirely in London, or within commuting distance to London, on my salary alone. without additional expenses. When I work late to support their work, I pay for my own dinner, and my own journey home. Alongside this, I go home to my own family, not a one bedroom flat, and I spend my weekends (unless work is very busy) doing what I please rather than working.

So I think it's all a great deal more complex than this thread suggests, and I'm sure people posting on here do recognise that. I doubt that we lack decent candidates for Parliament because of the salary though, as what you really need to survive as an MP is a certain level of obsession and determination. If the money puts you off, I don't think the rest of it would be any easier to cope with. Perhaps that mindset is rather male in general. We need wholesale reform of lots of bits of the machinery, from constituency selection onwards, to see great change.

MissM · 24/02/2015 14:56

That's a fair and balanced comment Politicalpanda, but what made me so mad about Rifkind's comments was their arrogance. £60K is a lot of money. I'm comfortably middle class, educated, professional, blah blah, but neither I nor my husband could ever dream of earning that sort of wage from the 9-5. We don't even earn that much as a combined income. Whether or not MPs are paid enough to justify not doing a second job or not, they need to be aware that figures like 60K can't be bandied around as if it's pocket money.