AIBU to say dd can't go to the gifted and talented programme?

[Clarinet9]

OK don't moan at me this is not a stealth boast or a reverse AIBU I know gifted and talented is a dirty word for some on mumsnet but......

So firstly we are overseas. My school is driving me mad it is big (over 500 children) Combined classes are very popular here and for operational reasons they have decided to combine 3 school years i.e. some of year 4 with all of 5 and 6.
My dd was a year 3 in the only year 3/4 class last year, this year she is pretty much the only child from her class who has been kept in a 3/4 class again (hope this makes sense all the other year 3's were in a straight 3 or a 2/3) so she is effectively repeating the year!
All well and good if she needs to except she is working 2 years above in maths and about 18 months above in reading and writing, she is pretty competitive and pretty mature. We asked the head to move her as soon as the lists came out and she refused, no reason given just 'I don't change my mind when I have made a decision'
The rest of her peers from last year are now on a different site, and are pretty much being educated in a very different way, (the details are not important), she however despite reading the Hobbit over Christmas, came home with an early learning chapter book (2 sentences to a page, no word seems to have more than 7 letters!) and maths problems that write out 6 lots of 10 counters make __ counters.
She feels like she is being punished and is really demotivated and uninspired by school.

So today she comes home with a letter inviting her to join the G&T programme and I want to refuse.

I simply want the school to educate her in the appropriate class with her peers all the time not just between 2 and 3 on Tuesday afternoon to try and placate her parents.

So AIBU to write back that since she feels so upset to be separated from her peers and they are so sure they can provide appropriate work for her in her current class that she is to be kept in that class in order to help her settle and we look forward to her commencing some more ability appropriate work before the end of the term?

I don't know what it's like where you are and I'm a bit out of date for UK, as DS1 is 13 yo now, but I wouldn't get over excited about it. DS1 was G&T in yr1, simply because the school had to maintain a list. He was doing well but he was never "gifted" and is decidedly average now. I don't think it ever made much difference to the actual work he did in school - just meant he was in the top groups when they did small group work, but that would have been the case whether he was G&T or not. It sounds like that's what they plan for your DD.

Lots of parents or precocious readers complain that their reading books are too easy, The standard answer from teachers is that being able to read words with more than 7 letters isn't the same as properly understanding the book. Could your DD write a resume or answer a proper comprehension paper on The Hobbit?

Oh dear, sorry about your situation, I can see that would be very frustrating. But it's hard to advise without knowing what your rights are in the school system you're in. I do think that you need to have a proper sit down with the teachers to see why they're making this decision. The head's refusal to give reasons is just awful. I wonder if you approached the classroom teacher you could get some answers? I would advise you to first get a detailed understanding of their reasons before making any demands. It is possible they have good pedagogical reasons for the decision. And possibly they're kicking their heels in because they sense a fight (which obviously doesn't make it ok for them not to give reasons, but might mean that you get better results by trying a different way of talking to them).

But if you decide they don't then I guess you have to work out what options are even possible for you. Ie, can you put pressure on the school to move your dd up, can you move her to a different school? If not then it's going to be damage control and you'd have to start thinking how can I make life better for her in this class. Maybe the G&T program would be part of that, I don't know. But I think that the decision about the G&T program should be separate from your inquiries into why she has been put into this class and what can be done about it.

Good luck.

Not excited about it I think it is a con and an attempt to placate us! Although it is a pull out of the classroom thing
No need to maintain a list (but quite a mc area so parents love it I expect)
Yes she understands what she is reading

Is a different school a possibility?

Just to clarify, do you want her in a different class with a different age range or to have separate work but in the same class? Did you want her on the different site?

Being able to read words & understand themes are 2 very different things. My DS read the Hobbit at age 8 but I doubt he understood the subtext or grasped any subtleties tbh

if you don't get many replies on aibu then there is a G&T topic as well :)

Just for info, when my DS was in year 4 in his UK state primary, they did gardening in G&T & sometimes cooking, it wasn't academic stuff but it was valuable as he socialised with his peers. G&T clubs & lists aren't always about extra maths or literacy.

In classtimes, e.g. maths he sat at a table by himself & did different work & this was how the school managed it.

We don't really want to move school (there is a strong chance we are moving anyway in about a year but it is not certain yet)
Yes we wanted her across the road with her peers doing what they are doing over there (as an example her classmates were building robots and working with some film making app whilst she was reading the cat sat on the mat and learning her 2 times table to add insult to injury her class then got marched outside to watch the robots in action - something she found very distressing)

The only reason I can think of as to why she is in the class (if it is one) is that she has one good friend from last year who has some family issues and is more towards the other end of the learning spectrum and I think the teacher may have wanted to keep them together on the basis that they are good for each other (I disagree and think they make each other silly)

I don't particularly want her doing 1 hr of anything in the G&T programme, even less so because the school think it will shut me up I want her to get an appropriate education I want her not coming home from school in tears because her old class mates think she is stupid, I really really want her to learn that she needs to work hard to do well and all about risk taking and trying and all that stuff not sit around asking m why she is being punished and telling me school is boring and she hates it now!

Is pestering making repeated appointments to see the Head feasible? Keep on at her for either a move or a reason.

Can you take it further, so here I could escalate to the Governors or the LEA? Do you have such a structure & can you go over her head if she still refuses?

Why don't you let her do the G&T programme - it might help. Then, if it doesn't help, you can go to the head and say "This isn't working for DD. it needs to be sorted." They can't then say "Oh, but we offered X and you turned it down. It's not our fault."

Next year she would be year 5 (except fingers crossed we will be moving!)

I should be able to take it to the Governors except they are universally supportive of the head in every way and it is noticeable that their children are in the cream of classes (and in fact 3 have year 4 children and all of them are on the other site!)

It sounds like you'd be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You can make your objections about the class your dd has been placed in without withdrawing her from something that would benefit her, and if you expect to be taken seriously by the school, then you should let her do the G&T.

So she is a yr4 in aY4 class? That in itself isn't a problem as presumably the Y3s and Y4s follow different syllabuses?That is my experience of mixed yr classes anyway.
However the work you describe sounds more like reception work?

Thanks all
Judge she is a year 4 in a year 3/4 class, I think/thought they kind of follow a blended syllabus so maths would be done separately, reading in groups but if they are doing science/PE/other stuff they do it together. I guess the teacher has different expectations for the years.
When mine have been mixed previously it has worked OK but we have had quite a few single year classes.
It is the decision this year to send nearly everyone in my daughters class to a different site that is exacerbating things for us.

We have a meeting with the teacher next week so we will see what happens.

she had to fill in a form today grading things out of 5

so finding the work challenging was graded 1/5 i.e. very easy
boredom 5/5 i.e. lots
enjoying school work 1/5 not much
speed of work 1/5 too slow
feeling of belonging 1/5 not at all

she did give 4/5 for comfort sharing thoughts and ideas

but eek

I have decided to try the questions out on the others now

yes they mix a lot so about 90 year 4's are split across 6 or 7 classes or 10 (depending on how you define it) there are no straight yr 4's this year but there is only 1 mixed 1 and 2 some mixed 2/3's otherwise straight year 2.

Thanks osmiornica plaster on a wound sums it up nicely

From your original post your DD is in a Y3/Y4 class as she was last year.
Her Y4 class mates from last year have been moved to Y3 or Y2/Y3 classes?
So your DD is actually working at a higher level than her old classmates?
If this is the case I can't really see your problem - presumably the work would be even easier in a Y2 or Y3 class?
The issue is actually the level of work given to her in the class, rather than the class she is in. I would definitely let her do the additional G&T class.

Sorry Seeline her entire class with the exception of 3 (I think) have gone to another site into combined year 4/5/6 classes.
It was a bit rambly now I read it back the 2/3 bit was referring to the fact that she was in a straight yr 3 whereas all the other year 3 classes were mixed year 2/3 so going to a 3/4 is progression.

The way i read it seeline was that she was a yr 3 in a 3/4 class last year. The 4's have now gone up to 4/5 (or 5), but she is now a yr 4 in a 3/4 class, so repeating work.

And yes, i can see why she feels stupid :( it was how it was done when i was in school. Clever kids went in the 5/6 class at yr 5, less clever in the 4/5 class (we only had one yr 5 when i was in school so the other half of the year had to be split)

Beyond is more right that I am Not helped by a cut and paste fail my dd was a 3/4 there was one straight yr 3 and a number of 2/3. I can't remember but I know the year was split into far fewer classes
Originally they were moved to a 4/5 now they have all been jumbled up into 4/5/6's.
So all of her old class (except 3) are in 4/5/6 classes.

Yeah it bugged me when the lists were handed out that they had been split across so many classes and across 2 sites it emphasises the 'specialness' (as some parents have been saying!)
Compounded by all the opportunities being offered to the ones in the 4/5/6 and exacerbated by the fact that nearly the entire class went over the road.
The really annoying thing is that there are parents who really don't want their child in the 4/5/6 yet we are not allowed to swap (and I do realise we can't have organisation by parents or else the whole school would be placed in the top class and the gifted and talented group etc etc!

I remember your other thread, did you talk to the teacher about ability-appropriate work for your DD or is that the meeting next week?

You can accept the G&T programme thing and still complain about the cat sat on the mat books. She should be working at an appropriate level all the time, not just one hour a week.

oh noble it was a disaster my husband doorstepped her (I think that's the expression) and was just not very clear what it was all about (he didn't help himself since he had not replied to her email about times to meet) he then got very frustrated and was waving the cat book around 'saying what do you call this then' (she spluttered something about dd enjoying it-dd says there was nothing more suitable in the classroom) and waffled on about how she was still working out what level everyone was out (fine except we are 1/3 of the way throughout the term- and surely she should have worked out who are the outliers or been bloody told)

then she said she refused to give dd differentiated work until she stopped talking (it wasn't actually taking but you get the idea)

then the head of year came over so I explained a bit of the back story (and got told I should have spoken to the head last year so I of course replied that I had been there within 48 hours)

then the teacher said she refused to talk to either of us unless she had the deputy head with her and was now too upset to go to work

and we left it that we would email about a meeting

teacher has then taken a couple of days off
when she was back she then walked past me in the playground and was rude behind my back (either about me or dd)

the disaster is compounded because I have previously been pretty involved in the school, fundraised lots for them, run some lessons for 1 year of kids, helped run a programme for some of the AEN that type of stuff, now I feel like I can't go there, I am so cross with the place + every time I go there I have to go to the other site so I walk past all of her friends doing stuff she is excluded from and it just reinforces how sad she is (as evidenced by the bloody questionnaire) and I am so mad with them about the bloody G and T thing.
So cross that they think a year of missed education and sadness can be made up for by a bloody hour a week for 2 terms (and that I should have to put up with her being taught by someone who refuses to speak to me!)

Sorry I ment to go back to the thread and update but I have a massive work deadline to meet and have been stressed.

Are you in Australia OP? It sounds like situations my DDs have been in many times over the years. My experience has been that the mixed grades aren't really a problem as the syllubus runs over two years and all the children cover topics in either year 3 or year 4 depending on whether they're in an odd or even year iyswim. The subjects that are more linear like maths and reading tend to happen in smaller groups based on ability. In any class, even single grade classes, there is always a huge range of abilities so that system works very well. In fact I've seen some single grade classes with a greater range of abilities than the mixed grade classes. I know all children are different but I have a very high achieving DD who always did better when she was in the older cohort of a class. It seemed to work for her to be the oldest and the brightest. I was a bit surprised at the time because it seemed a bit counterintuitive. I would have thought that she'd have done better to be 'pushed' by the older cohort but it didn't work out that way at all.

I'd probably be talking to your DD's teacher about making sure she's reading material appropriate to her level but being in the older cohort of a mixed class is honestly fine. The fact that she's being 'paired up' with another child for the other child's benefit would bother me a lot more. My other DD is a very kind and patient soul who was frequently put with other children due to her positive influence (Sorry, it sounds like a boast, you'll be happy to know the girls are teenagers now who are appropriately testing me!). It would work great for the other kids, and presumably the teacher, but it really wasn't too good for her. I've had to say to teachers more than once that I was happy for her to take her turn sitting at noisy tables etc but she also needed her turn at having opportunities to work quietly or to be with her friends. Thankfully that approach seemed to work and she didn't have to stay in situations that weren't beneficial to her for too long. I'm pretty sure things wouldn't have changed without saying something though.

The split site sounds awful. I can understand that your DD would be very unhappy to be away from her friends in the same year. I imagine that moving to the other site is also a bit of a right if passage for the children so spending an extra year at 'junior' site wouldn't be very nice at all. It's also a very bad look for none of the children of the Governors to have been held back at the other site. If you are in Australia and you're talking about the school council I can only suggest that you write a letter to the school council and principal and ask that this be addressed. Obviously some kids have to stay at the old site but it seems like something nobody likes and having their kids immune is really not okay. The principal will have a regional management structure that you can complain to if the they won't consider changing their position. Just tell her that you want to escalate the complaint. She will have to refer you to the appropriate person. The reality is that your complaint will probably help future cohorts rather than your DD though.

Good luck to you and your DD. I hope your new school works out much better. In the meantime I'd probably let your DD try the G&T program. It could be a very beneficial thing.

Sorry about the cross pist OP. It sounds like it's all become a bit messy. Hopefully your history of supporting the school will count for something when you're trying to sort all of this out

Why shoot yourself in the foot? I would accept the G and talented but in a letter explaining what you are unhappy about, what needs to be done, etc.