To think all the targeted pensioner benefits ie bus pass, TV and winter fuel should be abolished...

[Figmentofmyimagination]

.... And the equivalent amount added to the pension credit of low income pensioners. That would overcome the logistical/cost based arguments against means testing these benefits.

Oh ... I was born during WWII and remember a childhood in the depressed, grey atmosphere of the 40s and 50s. I've worked all my life, paid shedloads in tax and NI, and was royally shafted by the Equitable Life débacle, where the pension that had been paid into for years was decimated by Equitable and also by the so called financial 'regulators', the government of the day turning a blind eye to the shenanigans going on.

I am not on the breadline, but I certainly don't live high on the hog. I have to think carefully about purchases, and dread stuff like my elderly central heating system breaking down or the elderly cat needing veterinary treatment. Receiving the benefits to which OP objects make a lot of difference to my quality of life, especially the facility to travel free on London buses and Tube, and reductions on mainline rail tickets.

On the other hand, I feel desperately sorry for people who have been so badly treated by the current 'welfare' rules - I have a good friend, middle aged, wheelchair bound through MS, yet she's been bullied and harried about 'being able to work'. She most definitely isn't able to work and her health, and state of mind, aren't helped by this awful attitude.

I am extremely grateful for my free travel facility, my Winter fuel allowance - and look forward to the free TV Licence in a few years. I do appreciate them. I wish there was more fairness for everyone, with a government more in touch how people actually live, especially those with health and social problems. But of course, our 'leaders' are mainly 'career politicians', who've never had what I would call a 'real' job in their lives.

Will get off my soap box now.

howcan I gathered you didn't support it. I understand your point.

I think we do have an interest in preventing vulnerable people from suffering, and as people become elderly they grow increasingly vulnerable (although I don't wish to patronize anyone, this generality makes me uncomfortable). I don't think this means we should just throw money at a certain demographic because that's the way we've always done it, particularly when there are swathes of children living in appalling conditions throughout the UK.

To avoid confusion, my boldface was in response to your comment, howcan

We have a public interest in the old keeping warm and not becoming isolated

Divide and conquer ! Far better to get the people of this country to bitch about the politicians rather than about each other , said no politician ever

Lool. Why do people always want to punish thone who worked hard and saved. "GGive to the poor". No. Give to everyone- the poor should ofcourse be helped but 'rich' also deserve their share cos they put into the system.

If it was only given to the poor then no one would bother saving and just rely on the government - and then the whole welfare system just fails.

Child benefits (and all other except disabled) should be cut because those people CAN make money but OAPs no longer can - ththey've done their share.

So much bitterness and jealousy from people.

No - I don't think cb should be cut. Even families with 2 incomes are struggling. You can't just get a job. Unless you've got childcare on tap from family, it's easy to find yourself out of pocket.

I'd make it universal again. The current threshold is too low. I know someone who's a SAHM with 2 children at primary school and a toddler whose husband got a promotion which just took them over the level and she lost a major part of her food budget. That's what happens if you start tinkering with meanstesting. To get enough to pay for the meanstesting, you have to hit average incomes, too.

So what if some people could afford to bank cb for their dcs' future. They were the lucky few, and paid for it in their taxes. And the same applies to rich pensioners.

You could be talking about me there Thyme. We are in the exact situation you describe with regards to CB. Just over the threshold, 3 dc and SAHM. I have friends on joint incomes of over 80k and they still get their CB and also have the good fortune of being able to bank it for their dc. I have calculated that anyone with 3 dc in this situation, will lose 50k over the lifetime of their CB claiming years. That's a lot of money, especially when it's still being paid to people on much higher incomes. That's the thing I don't get about this, how can the government claim you are too rich for CB on 50k, but not rich enough and still entitled to it on 90k? That's the bit I can't forgive.

But isn't the point Bereal many OAPs don't need to earn more.Both our sets of parents have more money than they literally know what to do with,several holidays a year including long haul,new cars etc.They didn't do anything special to earn it and both had a sahp the entire time alongside the full quota of CB,uni fees paid,uni grants for their kids etc,etc.

They do not need UB and there are many,many pensioners like them.If you are taking UB off one set of society,you damn well need to do it to all and NOT protect one set because they get you into power.

That's the thing, CB should have been either left universal, or removed from families on a JOINT income. As it was, they chose to remove it from one section of society on a single income of 50k. If they can do this for CB, they can do this for WFA, etc. It isn't right to remove universal benefits from one section of society and keep them for another just because they are more likely to vote for you.

it is cheap and easy to administer if you make it a tax cut off point - you can MAKE people legally responsible for administering it themselves through tax returns - and if they don't want to do that you can get them to just withdraw their claim for it.

As a plan it is ingenious, as a "fair" plan it stinks.

Grandmama, sorry to read about your friend. Ms is a dreadful disease, why do they think she can work? This is why i hate all governments , they really have no idea.

Lepetit and many more do need the money ! My main arguement Isn't even that. It's the effect such a scheme would have. I'm in uni now and if the policy changed 'we will help those that didn't bother working hard or saving up their money' , then why should I keep working hard? Why would I then save money later on when I know someone else will look after me ?

Tbh I believe everyone should look after themselves ,and their children, until they are at a stage when they can not - disability or old age and you've paid into the system

Sorry for any typos - I'm on my phone

Sorry but they have taken other UB away so that argument is neither here nor there.

The Tories have decided UB are to be taken away so sorry that must include those for all sections of society.

Cameron just looks like a self protecting hypocrite.

Taking it away from pensioners just because you've taken it away from parents just pushes us further down the slippery slope of NO universal benefits. It does not make it 'fairer'. I'd vote for the party that restored it to how it was, even if it involved restrictions such as the number of children etc.

And where next? Currently, we have the universal benefit of an NHS free at point of use. (Paid for out of taxation, in one way or another.) Not means tested. But there's already talk of nibbling away at that, with paying for GP visits, A&E visits, calling an ambulance. They do this in NZ.

'Oh it'll be all right. Only those who can afford it will pay.' And how will they decide that? Means testing by any other name.

Once you get rid of the principle that some groups should have special consideration in the distribution of money from the exchequer, because they're parents or old - or sick? - you're living in a very different society.

Well I don't see them planning on restoring CB so sorry the gate has already been opened.

The needy are losing a lot.

Rich pensioners don't need benefits.

It's an absolute no brainer,there is no way UB for pensioners can be justified.

Absolutely agree thymeout.

Countries where the rich look after themselves and do not participate in the state tend to be very unpleasant.

The fact is, they have already removed CB, therefore there is no reason to keep other universal cash benefits. Schools and the NHS are different as they are free at the point of use. Anyway, I'm sure there's currently a 'bright spark' in parliament drawing up plans as we speak to charge higher rate tax payers to go to school and use the NHS. I just hope they plan to lower taxes commensurately.

But ...Once this all starts , what's going to stop them charging people for schools and the NHS because they 'don't need it'. All this will build resentment and I agree with merrymouse ... what if the 'rich' just start looking out for themselves since they won't benefit from the state ?

It's already started bereal, child benefit is no longer universal. Charging for schools and the NHS is just around the corner I think. They won't mention it between now and May, but they will mention it after the summer recess, I guarantee that will be their next port of call. However, they can't expect higher rate tax payers to carry on paying higher rate tax and pay for the NHS and pay for schools and pay for families on nearly twice their salaries to get child benefit, while they don't get it themselves.

ihategeorge it's quite scary I think. It will lead to so much more division in society and I dread to think how the poorest will be without the support of high rate tax payers

So how do you all feel about inheritance tax? Perhaps all these rich pensioners should be paying back to society in general ( and not to their families) on their deaths?

Dido was that to me ? I don't agree with it - it's yet again taking from those that worked hard/saved all their life.
I don't think the pensioners need to give anything back at death as they have already given plenty (the rich ones would have been taxed higher), hence why they now enjoy the 'perks'.

Am a recent newcomer to Mumsnet and am absolutely astounded by just how left wing bias it is!!

Any which way the Tories get a bashing !! They can't do right from doing wrong and no, I'm not sticking around to read even more Tory bashing ( I'd better get my army wear on ready for my bashing in a sec!!!)

Back to the OP

YABU.....absolutely.