Stop ds fucking screaming

[shutupnow]

I am shut in a room away from him. He has screamed, and I mean screamed, for the last hour after losing his screen time for the day after he kicked ds2. This is a rule he knows about, though it has never yet been enforced.

I can't stand it. Surely this is not normal for an 8yr old? I have stayed calm but just snapped at him to shut up and slammed the door on him. I feel doubly worse as they have been away at their dad's since Thursday and this was the last few hours of the holiday and it's ruined. I don't blame their dad - he is prone to these rages anyway, but this is bad even for him.

I feel desperate.

Shut up, it's been nearly an hour since your original post, how is he now?

well, he calmed down and ate tea and we have played top trumps. I attempted a debrief but he started grizzling again and is still insistent that I'm not fair, prefer ds2, his arm was yanked, he couldn't help it etc. Not really sure where to go from here. Obviously don't want to re-escalate tonight, but we do need a strategy. One issue I have is that he will not go to his room. If I put him there (reluctant to do so as I end up dragging him and it doesn't feel right - feels like I could hurt him and wouldn't even care ) he just comes back down and insists on screaming at me where I am. I asked him why he won't stay in his room, and he says because he's afraid of ghosts, but I'm not sure if that is an excuse or a genuine fear.

Any words of hope from others who have had late-tantrumers who eventually stopped. Every now and then he will go a while without kicking off and I start to wonder if it's over - then he has another humdinger...

My DS is a rather calm and well-behaved child who has sudden, but very infrequent, outbursts of pure rage. He's dangerous to himself and his sister when he's like that (I have to restrain him). It's always caused by his sister provoking him, and him overreacting. Of course his sister is in the wrong too, but ultimately his reaction is excessive and it makes it harder for adults to be "fair".

Anyway it sounds like you've handled it fine (I also disagree with those suggesting upping the ante while the child is out of control, they are not in a psychological condition to respond rationally to threats).

If it's possible it's always best to isolate older children having a tantrum (because attention-seeking is usually is a BIG part of tantrums at this age) but it's not always possible - in my DS's case it would be positively dangerous. When DD used to have big paddies at this age I would tell her she had every right to feel angry but she needed to go and be angry somewhere I didn't have to watch. But obviously you need to adapt your response to the situation and your child.

I think it's ok to leave him 'in situ' as long as nobody is engaging with him and you can escape elsewhere. Or is he following you?

I found 'The Explosive Child' a really helpful book for my eight year old.
It really gave me a new perspective. It doesn't help you in the moment of the tantrum/meltdown, but it gives you strategies to put in place to make them less frequent. It has taken months, but now tantrums only last about 20 minutes as opposed to the HOURS they used to last!

My DS refuses to stay in his room as well, and I second taking DS2 with you in another room (I use my bedroom). That way you avoid the power battle that his tantrum is drawing you into. Then in the room find a way to distract yourself, because there's nothing more you can do to make him ride it out. I try playing games, watching cartoons or joking around with other DS, just to keep my own panic/anxiety/anger under control. You sound like you doubt yourself, but you're really doing the right thing and when he sees you're in control, he's likely to be much easier to deal with.

I stopped DS going to football training once for bad behaviour. He was quite incredulous that I would actually follow through with it, and the rage that ensued was most spectacular. Well worth it tho , as he was the model child for about 3 weeks after. I never needed to do it again, as the threat was enough.

Oh and most of my dd's tantrums/meltdowns were more like panic attacks in some ways. We started taking her fears more seriously and that helped too. Basically all the stuff which felt like 'giving in', but the super nanny style of discipline simply did not work for her and never did.

There can be an element too of one sibling knowing exactly how to push the buttons that winds up the other, until the wound up one lashes out, while the winder-up manages to look like the injured party.
Some kids are experts at that, IMO.

charityd I completely agree.

I don't agree with throwing more threats re screen time at him while he's still reeling from this punishment, all you are doing is escalating the tantrum. At that moment he was backed right into a corner and the only way to get out in his eyes is by fighting back... give him an out, obviously not by backing down on his punishment but step back and make it clear when he's ready to come and talk you will be there (without his sibling who will be a trigger still if he perceives that he was the one wronged in the first place!) and you can discuss what happened. When he's ready, reward him for being calm enough to talk to you, praise him for it - it's a bloody hard thing to do for most adults let alone an 8 year old!

I don't have an issue with telling my children sometimes that I don't like their behaviour but I do try not to tell them I don't like them (try, because I'm only human after all and it's far too easy to get dragged down into a bickering sesh!)

Is him and his brother an ongoing issue? Does ds2 do things to ds1 that you perhaps don't see? Maybe once he's calm it would be a good opportunity for you both to have a chat. Even if you don't believe that ds2 did start it (or does on a routine basis) if you speak to ds1 about it he will feel that at least you are listening to his point of view.

Kids are bloody hard work though, you're doing fine

Tiswine has it nailed. I withdraw my bad advice and agree that more threats would escalate and confuse the situation.

Hope you're all breathing easier now OP.

If ds2 yanked his arm he should be punished also in line with his part.

Mine has just tantrumed too. He's a big hearted lovely yet sensitive little 7 year old chap and if he's hungry/exhausted, he can lose the plot which tonight resulted him demanding to sleep in a different bed at bedtime. His tantrum kept ds4 awake, which initially made me feel a bit cross. However we go for an empathic approach. So listening and empathising with how he feels. Giving a long cuddle and chatting about feelings seems to calm him down and make him feel more settled. I have noticed that the more connected he feels to me, the happier he is.

peony That is kind of what we have started to do. I used to be really firm, do rapid returns to bed etc. but it never, ever worked and just resulted in dd getting more tired and more distressed and panicky. Simply saying stuff like "I know you're feeling tired. You must be worn out. I know you wish you could (whatever it was) " really worked to calm her down. At first it was very hard though. It really went against everything I did before and everything which worked brilliantly with very compliant and easy going other child!

Runaway I've totally changed my parenting too. My eldest three were easy and compliment like yours. My ds4 is a totally different child however. He is very aware of emotions and his environment and is very perceptive. He really needs holding emotionally.

However these days I use the empathic approach with all my 4 children and I think its a much more positive relationship wise. A constructive, more caring type of communication to take into adulthood.

peonny If you read The Explosive Child it is all about children simply not having the skills yet to deal with emotional difficulties, so punishing/rewarding does not work. A bit like you punishing me for not speaking Russian, but never actually teaching me it in the first place. I just wish my DH was a little more onboard with it all. He still favours the GET TO BED style!!! However, my youngest would try the patience of a saint at times.

Yes to the Explosive Child - really good book. I have an 8 year old who can still tantrum like this. What works for him is minimal intervention. In that scenario I'd have 'escorted' him to a quiet room (I can, just, still pick him up and carry him if I have to, but I agree with you it's not the best way and is very difficult at this age. Usually I can either ask him to go, he takes himself, or I can lead him firmly by the hand). If necessary I'd have sat outside the door to stop him coming out for a bit. An alternative is to remove yourself and DS2 from the situation if you can, or train DS2 to take himself elsewhere.

Then do NOT engage. No arguments about who did what to whom, nothing. All can be saved for much later when he's calm.

Fwiw my general rule is that thumping carries a consequence regardless of what the other sibling did. I will be more sympathetic if the other one did something, and if appropriate they get a consequence too, but I think you can go mad untangling who allegedly did what to whom, and in adult life we have to learn to cope with being provoked without thumping people back.

When you say the rule hasn't previously been enforced, do you mean he isn't in the habit of kicking his brother or that this is the first time you've introduced this consequence? If the latter, I think it will get better as you go on - this was the case with DS. These days he turns his ipad in without being asked if he's offended (and offends much less often). If the former, not too much need to worry.

All the best.

Thank you for all the replies.

Had another chat with him before bed and he got very upset again and said next time he will kill himself rather than feel like that again . I feel really out of my depth. I managed to calm him down and we played another game and he seemed fine at bedtime - but where have I gone so wrong to have a child saying that?

Ironically, we have always favoured the httskwl type of approach, with punishments kept to a minimum, but h and I ran into difficulties and a lot of that has gone out of the window over the last couple of years . Ds has always been prone to these outbursts, but I'm sure our break-up hasn't helped.

Yes, ds2 does know how to push his buttons, and I crack down on this when I see it, as well as talking to ds1 about being less easy to 'wind-up'. the trigger for tonight's outburst was that ds1 was trying to get the wii onto sport, he couldn't do it, I was cooking, ds2 offered to do it for him and, according to ds1 deliberately put it back on his game. I didn't see it, but, tbh, feel there has to be a zero-tolerance approach to kicking/hitting anyway.

Ds1 just seem to have this enormous anger in him, and has had some poor examples set him from h and I, though not involving violence. Am considering a trip to the gp about him, or is that over-reacting? .

We were at that point about six months ago. But since making some changes to our responses it had become easier and I am glad we did not involve GP or camhs. Maybe give it some more time.

Oh and you haven't gone wrong. So much of parenting is playing the hand you have been dealt. How can I be super mum to one easy going child and bad mum to the more challenging one? It's not possible. They are different.

No, I don't think it's over-reacting to ask for advice about a child with behaviour that is impacting on the family.

My DD went through a terrible screaming phase and I had trouble getting her to go to her room (dragging, etc). As another poster said, her tantrums were largely about anxiety and trying to control situations following my separation from her dad. Now instead of sending her to her room, on her own (she is scared like your DS) I will take her upstairs when she is tantruming, and once she is in her room I sit (inside) against the door. I don't talk or look at her, I just wait until the screaming stops and she gets herself under control. Then I hug and talk it through and she feels better.

Late to the party here, but just wanted to say you haven't gone wrong.
We all lash out when we are hurt and angry, that's just what DS was doing earlier.
Tomorrow is a new day, start afresh. Be kind to yourself, we can't be SuperMum every day of the week.

Sorry but I would be very worried if my 8 year old was talking about killing himself. Personally I would be having a chat to gp / school nurse.

I agree zero tolerance on kicking/hitting etc. But.... Beware. Whilst your DS1 (quick to temper) will be learning it's not acceptable (and needs to be given strategies to deal with it alongside punishment) your DS2 is currently learning he can wind his borther up being unkind - and get your 1:1 attention out of it. Your DS2 will continue to be unkind because there's no reason for him to stop the behaviour.

And let's face it - if we were trying to put something on TV we wanted to watch and someone came along with the pretence of helping us find the channel - then put on something they wanted to watch we'd be pissed off as adults. We'd start a AIBU on MN be even more pee'd off if someone was telling us to get a grip because we were pissed off by it and expected us to forget about our programme.

So bare in mind - the kicking is wrong - but his reason for being cross is fully justified.

imhave very personal experience of this.