to think that "middle class" has become a derogatory term

[hijk]

and actually, most people aren't actually part of any class, really, they are just individuals who make their own way in the world.

Be careful with things like salad cream. One must not forget irony.............

Hak I'd answer questions! I will be completely honest.

I like this thread, it hasn't descended into nasty goading oneupmanship or vice versa.

We have both brown sauce and ketchup.
Salad cream and Mayo are both here too..

yer poss she is being a bit ironic, but honestly this whole 'class' thing has just fucked up my family, ever since my maternal grandmother thought she was Hyacinch Bucket to my dreadful bro who will busily "correct" our pronunciation and etiquette, to my ghastly SM etc etc.....

When I called my SIL middle class I most certainly meant it in a derogatory way. She took it as a compliment

So can you explain what it is you were being derogatory about? In what way you consider middle class to be different from, and worse then you?

What did you say to imply that you thought mc was a decent insult towards your SiL?

No, we're not all middle class by any means. I think we've been made to feel that we are middle class and successful to keep us 'satisfied' and 'passive.' I think the demarcation lines are getting more blurred with every day that passes.

Didn't Kate Fox say that it's all down to speech, manner and taste now? I'm pretty sure that when she was talking to Grayson Perry, she said that these are things that are set in stone from an early age (7 ish) and cannot be faked successfully for more than a very short period of time. Isn't this why the top universities and businesses take prospective students and candidates to unfamiliar settings to see them 'perform' out of their comfort zone? I think it's known as the artichoke test or something similar.

I feel odd. I don't feel working class, middle class or upper class. I don't identify with any tribe. My work and salary put me in the upper-middle class bracket buy I didn't go to university and I was born in a mining town.

< wanders off alone to ponder own class angst >

I would definitely call my ex MIL middle class because that is what she desperately wanted (and needed to be).

Her father was a railroad worker from East London. She trained as a nurse and then was an airhostess in the late 1950s/early 1960s. She flew the Africa route which took 3 days, hence why the hostesses needed medical training in case a passenger was taken ill.

She met my ex FIL whilst skiing in Switzerland. She was beautiful. He was rich and from the county set. The family made her change her name from Jean to Jenny, as that was far more appropriate, and then spent the rest of her life making her feel inadequate because she wasn't really part of their family.

She raised a son who went to posh school who was OK at the first, quite nice, until we married and then he turned into his father and became a twat.

Anyway, my lovely NEW(ish) DH, DS and I went off to Duxford IWM the other day and I looked at the photos of the BOAC Africa crew and the air hostess and I felt so sad that such a similar lady with everything going for her (such a glamorous life - really, those were the days...) should have such a miserable married life because she wasn't middle-class-enough for people who didn't even think her name was posh enough. I feel quite sorry for her really.

It's impossible to become middle class. You are either born middle class, or you aren't. All the degrees and high salaries in the world won't change that for you. Your kids though, that might be a different matter. I live with that reality every day (and it's totally fine, I'm very comfortable with who I am). There is no question that I'm better educated and know more about music/literature/theatre than my middle class and posh colleagues (art, no so much. I don't know less but I doubt I know more - I'm not really a visual person) but that is as nothing compared to the fact that I grew up poor in a council flat, and they didn't.

'Middle class' has been used in a derogatory fashion as long as I've been alive, whether by sneering aristo sorry chippy proles.

Ever since Marx's 'petit bourgeoisie', society has scoffed at the grasping of the aspirant classes. Maybe it's the fact that the 'bourgeoisie' have always been defined by a sense of wanting to be something they're not; a class identity in flux; one that isn't happy with itself and always wants to be one rung higher up the ladder.

I can't hear the term without thinking of Abigail's Party. Which just about sums it up to me.

Ops, I meant 'sneering aristos or chippy proles'. Bloody ipad.

sorry, this bit should have shown as a quote; this was a statement from shakirasma

When I called my SIL middle class I most certainly meant it in a derogatory way. She took it as a compliment

So can you explain what it is you were being derogatory about? In what way you consider middle class to be different from, and worse then you?

I do not know why you are asking hijk, as babycham said, the term has been used as a fairly thoughtless insult for years.

I think these terms are thrown out as derogatory when you're a bit wound up about something but then if you're asked to sit down and consider it, eg on a specific thread, you're not likely to be bitterly spitting out venom. I can do bitter and venom on demand though... lucky you eh? I don't do so well on making sense but here's a start.

I think of myself as working class with a middle class education. Being born to working class but surrounded by middle class who rarely had to struggle for anything growing up I think of the classes as different worlds. Different worlds of expectation and opportunity, based on wealth.

Coming across adults who think they are hard-done-by if they have to choose between having their third foreign holiday in a year or having their bathrooms done up, or going on about how they're worried about their poor 20-something kids living at home who won't take jobs or sign on because it's beneath them brings this into sharp relief. In working class circles you struggle to pay the bills, put food on tables, and kids have to be independent adults at 18 at the latest. Anything extra is a big struggle. The kids raised in these different circles have completely different ideas of what makes a normal life, and so it goes round and round and round. Not to say nothing bad can happen to middle class people obviously, but working class people are more subject to social ills. Violence, abuse, alcohol, etc.

Then add the point that middle classes are not inherently more deserving of their wealth and status. It has been shown in studies time and again that most wealth is inherited not earned. There has been some social mobility so some boundaries are obscured, but not as much as you probably think (and it is reducing). Higher paid jobs are still largely occupied by those who come from higher-paid parental backgrounds and better education, i.e. middle class. People who work in lower-paid jobs are not inherently less deserving, they simply haven't had the same opportunities. In any case we need someone to do those lower-paid jobs so why load them with status.

So on the whole middle class is an insult from me. Means the object is over-privileged and has no idea what real life is like, at the expense of the poor.

Most of us from the UK can tell in a few minutes of conversation the class of the other person but that's not too important. most of us don't take this kind of thing very seriously and value everyone whatever their class.

It is definitely not to do with money although over 1 - 3 generations people in a family can change class. My own family is a bit like the Middletons - NE mining family through to private schools £100k incomes and I suppose a bit of the accent that goes with it and in our case Oxbridge (Middletons air hostess, doors to manual etc not quite perhaps with the same IQs) in 2 or 3 generations.

twiceforked that is a really chippy view. No my parents did not have to "choose their third foreign holiday in a year", nor were we 'over privileged'.
If you think that 'middle class' means 'rich' then you have not really grasped the point.

Gentlybenevolent, your background sounds much like mine. However, I'm always tickled by the fact that middle class people DO think I'm one of them. They're inevitably horrified and - often - put-off when they hear about my council estate upbringing and truck-driving father.

But, more than anything, I think it's because I intimidate them; a chippy upstart who's smarter than them, skis better than them and knows more about abstruse art and music than them.

The middle classes have, to me, always been defined by a deep-seated insecurity based on the knowledge that what they have is down to luck rather than ability. That's enough to keep anyone awake at night, and it's at the core of modern politics. House prices are artificially inflated and grammar schools kept to a minimum because any other approach would severely jeopardise the cushy position of middle Englanders.

ah the joys of being Not English and living in England. You can call me MC or WC and I really don't care. It doesn't shape my view of myself at all (certain other things cut me to the quick though). DH is defo MC - of the skint,"ideas above material things" variety which values (very specific) achievements and interests above all else.

Nothing funnier than listening to the "WC done good" though - the men are way worse than the women. They're sooo WC despite being just as obsessed with getting their kids into the best private school and property prices as the rest of the "MC patsies" that they despise (caveat that I work in finance in the City and there is a certain specific breed of WC high achievers that can be particularly objectionable in their opinions about others in this regard. I admire their achievements and tenacity but man, they like to dish it out).

So on the whole middle class is an insult from me. Means the object is over-privileged and has no idea what real life is like, at the expense of the poor.

But your entire description is based on income, nothing more than that, and income can change drastically within a few years, many times over your lifetime.

You said your family struggled to pay the bills and put food on the table, but what has that got to do with being middle class or working class? That has got to be a fairly normal experience at some point or another in most peoples lives.

My take on this - and I haven't read the whole thread so don't know if this has been said already - is that 'middle class' is about values, the key one being 'security'. ie owning your own house.

when they hear about my council estate upbringing and truck-driving father.

I don't get it babysham, why do these things stop you calling yourself middle class?

What do you think middle class people have which means you can't classify yourself like that?

Do you own your own home Babysham?

The middle classes have, to me, always been defined by a deep-seated insecurity based on the knowledge that what they have is down to luck rather than ability. That's enough to keep anyone awake at night, and it's at the core of modern politics. House prices are artificially inflated and grammar schools kept to a minimum because any other approach would severely jeopardise the cushy position of middle Englanders.

I think this is really really true, actually.

My take on this - and I haven't read the whole thread so don't know if this has been said already - is that 'middle class' is about values, the key one being 'security'. ie owning your own house

This makes sense to me, but I don't see why someone owning their own home, or wanting to, is something to look down on.

Do you start being middleclass if you buy your council property? Do you stop being middleclass if your 4 bed detatched home is repossessed?

Gentlybenevolent, your background sounds much like mine. However, I'm always tickled by the fact that middle class people DO think I'm one of them. They're inevitably horrified and - often - put-off when they hear about my council estate upbringing and truck-driving father.

But, more than anything, I think it's because I intimidate them; a chippy upstart who's smarter than them, skis better than them and knows more about abstruse art and music than them."

I don't think those are middle class people you are mixing with- I think they are what is known in the trade as "bastards".....