To wonder how French (and Italian) women just know how to look stylish?

[Salmotrutta]

What is it exactly? I think it's the carefully chosen accessories like scarves, jewellery and bags but I'm not entirely sure...

I look okay(ish).

I'm reasonably good with styles that suit me.

But what is that undefinable thing that continental women seem to do that makes them look so elegant.

Simple, not overly made-up but just very well-groomed.

I want to know how to do it!!

One of my friends is French and she always tends to look much more stylish than the rest of us. She has the typical French 'look' (black hair, eyelashes, eyebrows, ever so slightly tanned skin all year round) and I really think it helps her look better without too much effort. She can just carry things off that we can't and clothes that look nondescript or gearish on us seem to look nice on her.

I'm continental and I've noticed that all my friends and family are very dismissive of "fashion moments"; we tend to wear classic clothes (plain, well cut, not a lot of frills) and a lot of neutrals/black/navy/grey.

On the flip side, I think the British style can be wonderful and very quirky - I certainly admire the gusto with which people embrace pattern and colour (we are petrified of "garish", I think).

I grew up in Italy and I promise you it is not effortless! People invest so much time in choosing a pair of trousers. A different approach to shopping, where you get collared by a shop assistant openind drawers upon drawers of variations on the same style.
If you are size 14 or over you are relegated to the plus size department of bigger stores.
People endlessly discuss which shoe to pair with which trouser or skirt style. And everyone ends up looking the same.
The outcome is that your clothes fit nicely, are better quality and you look groomed. But you might have bored yourself to death in the process!

I looked at that clip Twinkle's utube clip of Marie Anne and I thought she needs to do something with her frizz - her hair is a mess....where's the grooming. And I thought her choice of lipstíck was too much, fought with her face.

I haven't noticed women in Paris or Rome looking any better than women in London. Men in Paris however dressed amazingly well, interesting designs, better cut, just more aware of their clothes than British men.

It's a stereotype. My parents live in France and I can honestly say when I visit them I see no evidence of this style at all.

I must visit France and Italy in an alternate universe because to me they look exactly the same as the women in the uk except they all smoke more and wear more beige macs.

Some peoples take on effort is different, to me looking glamourous is better than looking efortlessly chic, I love what some women can do with makeup and rollers

I live in France (not Paris) and I certainly wouldn't call the women here stylish. There might be a high proportion of hairdressers and nail salons but it hasn't turned the female inhabitants into Audrey Tatou clones. Far from it. The plain, manicured nails allusion made me laugh: some of "nail art" I see here makes me wince.

I think to pull off dull, classic clothes you need to have a great face, great hair and fantastic accessories, in other words the dull, classic clothes need to be the white wall in the art gallery. The danger is that you just look dull, boring and a bit frumpy....it's certainly not the safe option.

For those saying the idea of the French all being chic is a stereotype, of course it is. But has some basis in truth, as do all stereotypes.

For those saying there are hideously un-stylish people in France, of course there are. Every country has this and a quick glance into any camping site during summer reveals fashion faux pas of the highest order, by almost anyone's standards. But so what?

The OP asked how do the French achieve this particular look, what is the secret, so I pointed to a few resources I thought might help her.

For what it's worth, one of my cousins visited us in London recently and far preferred the "street" look here rather than the "chic" look she finds so stifling back in France.

The French are a very pragmatic people. Great importance is placed on the cadre, the whole of France and society and fitting into the framework of the country. There is a particularsome call it elegantstyle in the country that exists for many (most), regardless of class. That in itself is very different from here in the UK. And if you don't believe me, I present Mme Rabeuleau, 58, who has been the cleaner in our family for two decades, and who arrives each week in a knee-length grey skirt, a crisp white shirt, a pair of low-heeled loafers, her own ironed apron, with makeup on and hair coiffed. All this in a small, rural, seaside village.

I don't think its necessarily French and Italian women per se its just that there are more who seem to go for the groomed look. As a pp has said there have been a lot of "groomed" threads with many tips but mine are as follows:

Hair MUST be clean and shiny. Don't think "it will do", if it really is bad and you have no choice then at least use dry shampoo on it.

Lightly tanned skin makes everyone look more polished.

Groomed eyebrows and mascara make a big difference. Well applied make up in general is important to the look.

Fewer clothes but well cut. I am frequently complimented on the way I dress but rarely buy anything new. I have some stuff in my wardrobe that has been there for years but I look after it and don't buy many "cheap high fashion" items. I tend to wear extremes in clothing so either fairly dressy or in jeans and blazer. The stuff in the middle is where you can easily find yourself looking messy/nothingy/cheap.

Clean shoes/boots - always with a heel. Tights either black completely opaque or sheer nude, no black 10 denier tights/stockings EVER. Way too 1980s.

Either bare or plain polished nails. No chipped nail varnish, no patterns on nails unless you're below the age of 13. Don't try to save your nails either. If one breaks then file them all down to a similar length and start again rather than having one obviously broken nail.

Sunglasses are a life saver (and essential in winter when the sun is low).

That's it for me. It isn't hard it's just a different way of shopping and styling. I think it suits me more particularly now I'm in my 40s.

to pull off dull, classic clothes you need to have a great face

No, this is not true! The whole point of the French style is that it helps any woman look elegant and chic, regardless of natural facial beauty or prettiness.

See Mireille Guiliano ('French Women Don't Get Fat') for a great example of a perfectly nice but plain face on a very elegant woman.

See Christine LaGarde, Sylvie Chantecaille, even Coco Chanel. None could be considered pretty/great face in the traditional sense, but all elegant women.

All my examples seem ancient but I am certain this is true for many young Frenchwomen as well.

Just don't agree that continental ladies are more chic. I think they dress very dully for the most part. When i went to Paris for the first time last year I was really expecting to see some very stylish ladies.......but didn't. For the most part they looked pretty frumpy and quite conformist. There is a certain (usually older ) italian woman who can look rather fabulous but it's mainly down to confidence and very expensive, well cut clothes. It made me appreciate the diversity of English fashion and colour. In the continent beauty is so usually white. I don't think that's the case if you people watch in London and people here have their own individual style too. I find it more interesting and more beautiful.

I know a British lady whose husband worked in Rome and for a while she lived there and took a job teaching primary school nearby. She taught the children of wealthy families and was struck by how beautiful the mothers were. Unfortunately she said it came at the expense of anything else, including caring for their children. She reckoned their whole world resolved around looking for their husbands and their children were looked after by Nannies and came very much second place to their mothers lifestyle.

YANBU. Walking around the UK I'd say most women look, well, 'cobbled together'. It doesn't take long to look well presented. So many women think that leggings with a dress and flat shoes or boots is an acceptable option. It isn't. It looks ridiculous.

It's about co-ordinating bags with shoes, hair done and never leaving the house without make-up.

In that case I'm fucked. I'll happily live with being a plump, slightly scruffy English-ish type of woman.

And I will wear colour. Lots of it.

Reject the beige!!

Twinkle - the elegance you describe is very old fashioned, and representative of a certain generation. The younger generation of chic is less elegant, more "cool". BoBo instead of BCBG. I think that even in St Germain des Pres, the younger generation are embracing contrived scruffiness. Equally covetable in terms of look, but hardly the generation which would wear ironed aprons. However, even in St Germain, despite the more relaxed code, the look is still as prescribed as the older generation's look, and all the girls/women dress the same in their cool "uniforms".

Spanish women too we were in Majorca a few years ago the hotel was full of Spanish people all elderly and the women just swished about looking fabulous every day

The younger generation of chic is less elegant, more "cool". BoBo instead of BCBG.

I agree with you, Mominatrix. It's no fun dressing like one's mother!

Yes, my examples were about the classic, older French style, but my guess is this younger generation will eventually embrace the 'uniform' of the older generation, perhaps incorporating a bit more of their own flair and altering the standard look somewhat for future generations. This is a good thing, I think.

Fashion, like other cultural references, seems to be shrinking globally. By this I mean that in the age of instant information we all have access to what is happening in foreign countries right now. Global shipping means we can spot something interesting and different in a foreign country and wear it within a week (finances willing), or be inspired to concoct something similar ourselves. Again, this is a good thing.

However, I still think the way something is worn will often be, while not necessarily unique to a particular country's women, at least different from how it is worn by another country's women, and will reflect more than the individual items in question. The effect will still be different as it will reflect the upbringing, landscape, culture, history, priorities, etc. of each country.

Which, I suppose, is quite a burden to place on a scarf, but there you have it.

drlego - I agree. Only been to Naples the once but it didn't look like any other place in Italy I had ever been or lived. I don't think any rules apply in any sphere in Naples - I'd love to go back there but I sure as hell couldn't live there. Respect to you .

I think that Frenchwomen have taste, but no style and Italian women have style but no taste!

I once saw a street cleaner in Rome who looked absolutely amazing. She was wearing a pristine white t-shirt, gorgeous swishy ponytail and big sunglasses.

It's just unfair to look so good when you're cleaning streets!

I am not sure they are. The French woman i used to work with wore baggy mens suits in tweed and nothing but brown and regularly got mistaken for a man. I now work with Italians/French and Spanish and they are all very trendy in casual wear as we only do business wear if clients are in. But when they were all invited to a formal black tie dinner, they all declined saying they hadnt got suitable formal evening wear (it was incredibly posh venue i dont know if maybe that was an excuse as they are all very young and might have thought it looked bit stuffy/boring).

I noticed they go for classic stuff that never really ages but with an addition that makes it on trend/current like a scarf. And they dont do the Essex girl plastered in makeup and lots of fake jewellery look so popular in London which is nice I think, as to me that looks more effortlessly fresh and sophisticated looking.

I admire French women for their dedication to their chic, groomed look. I have no desire to copy them though. It's all so....................taupe.

Italians can be quite flamboyant and Versace-ish, but it's easy to dress the French way if you want to, there's not a lot of variety. They seem to favour safe uniforms - Breton stripes, slim trousers, flat shoes, blazers, a lot of navy. Funnily enough my ex French colleague seemed to get it oddly wrong whenever she strayed from the classic formula. She went in for brilliant white trainers, mum jeans and a big baggy leather jacket, batik, tie-dying, fringing on anything. It was ether Ines de la Fressange mode or full on mental breakdown!