To wonder how, with all the funding cuts in the NHS, fertility treatment is still funded?

[Misfitless]

I know I will be flamed.

I considered name-changing, but it's cowardly, so I will take the flack.

Maybe infertility treatment has been cut, and I just haven't heard about it, but I have certainly heard that some cancer treatments have been cut.

I know it's easy for me to say, I have not had fertility issues, but I genuinely think that if I did, I wouldn't go down the route of expecting the NHS to fund it.

I am the only person on MN who feels this way/the only one who will admit it?

MrsD I think I was over ambiguous when discussing IVF with SS. I also think SS view me as young (33) as this was mentioned many times. We didn't make a formal application, we just chatted with a social worker and went to a group meeting. I'm not sure, had we decided to proceed at that time, if we would have been formally rejected for not trying IVF first. Although they were very encouraging that we go away and exhaust all of our treatment options.

We have since been faced with no funding at our fertility clinic until April, so if we do decide on IVF, we will have probably wasted a year in total. Of course, we could have proceeded with IVF privately. But the SW and our GP have been very encouraging that we do the NHS round as part of standard practice for infertile couples. We have just had to wait for funding. In the meantime we have everything crossed that a natural pregnancy will occur.

So you see OP, your "why don't you just adopt ?" argument has no merit in the real world. Even SW's recommend Fertility Treatment as a precursor to adoption (at least ours did - cant speak for anyone else).

It may sound entitled to be waiting for funding to return. However, we only get one round in this area, then we have to pay privately. On average people have 3 rounds of IVF at our FC before they have success. You do the maths.

MrsDV I think Pandora was thinking about a non bio sibling rather than a birth sibling.

Having been through both IVF (with just about all the possible complications eg OHSS) and adoption I can say there is a good reason why you need to do them separately - doing them together would absolutely send you totally insane. They both require a good deal of practical and emotional commitment - I just can't imagine doing them together.

If you were absolutely sure you didn't want to do IVF then most SS will allow you to move on - they won't insist you do IVF. I know people who made a decision early on not to have IVF and weren't forced to do so (how on earth would they

But if they get even a whiff of the fact that you are tempted to try they expect you to go ahead and try and have a decent interval to get over the failure (if it fails) because your head needs to be in a different place once you're committed to adoption and your prospective child deserves that too.

My internet has been down since I last posted, and I haven't caught up with all the posts that I've missed, yet.

But, I have realised how putting the word "just" before the word "adopt" has come across as flippant and arrogant, and I apologise for that.

Tbh, who knows whether or not I would be suitable. But what I meant was, I wouldn't want to adopt after I'd exhausted every other avenue, I would want to try and adopt as a next step, rather than the last step, iyswim. It came across as if I assume I'd be able to walk the process, and a child would just fall in my lap, but I really didn't mean that. I have huge respect for anyone who has gone through the adoption process.

As I've mentioned upthread, I have a cousin who was adopted, and close friends who have adopted. My desire would be to have a family, rather than to give birth to my own biological child. I do think I am able to know that, even though I haven't had fertility issues. Some people think that because I've never been in that situation, I can't possibly know that adoption would be the next step for me. People who've had IVF think that, anyway.

Mrs DeVere
*OP why do you keep bringing up adoption?
Do you have any experience of adoption?

Because it doesn't sound like you do.

Adoption isn't a simple alternative to IVF.*

I haven't been through the adoption process no. I know it isn't a simple alternative to IVF . Is it only people who don't want a family who should consider it, then, or people who specifically do not want to give birth to their own biological children who should explore it?

Why would you think that I would think that it is a simple alternative to IVF? Why should the default solution be IVF? I simply wouldn't consider IVF if it were me.

I don't understand why it should cause offence to say that I know I wouldn't want IVF if I were faced with infertility issues?

Misfitless you don't really seem to have much knowledge of either fertility issues or issues surrounding adoption which is why people probably think you don't know how you would feel.

I think it's very difficult to know how you would feel until you you are in that situation. And you seem almost completely unaware of the practicalities. For example, you don't find out you're infertile overnight. You have to try for 2 years before you're even referred for tests, then you can have a year waiting for referral and a year having tests. So by the time you get to 'Yes, you are infertile, you need treatment', even if you start trying at a relatively young 28 you will be 32-33 before you reach that point. And your fertility declines rapidly after 35. If you were desperate for a child would you fanny about for another 2-3 years hoping a fairly remote chance you would be approved for adoption would be approved whilst the chances of your alternative (treatment) diminished by the day.

And I'm sorry but I think about 95% of people who've had children naturally but claim they simply wouldn't have had them if they hadn't been able to are talking bollocks stemming from the fact they know they'll never have to make that decision.

Another good old ding-dong on the merits or otherwise of other people's choices - excellent.

Do we have a right to judge others' lifestyles? Well, for as long as our taxes help or hinder them, yes we bloody well do.

Do others have a right to opine on our own choices? Yes, for the same reason.

My neighbour buys pizza virtually every night of the week - I know this from the boxes that pile up outside. Do I judge? A bit. Do I resent her choices? No - because she has a job, pays her own way and it's none of my business.

Katie Hopkins criticised Katie Price for using state-provision to transport her son to and from his school - as a taxpayer she has every right to, in my opinion.

Forums, comments pages, letters to the editor, chats in the street - all of these are legitimate arenas for discussion on what other people do with their lives - if their lives are paid for by the taxpayer. Where people get on without such assistance, the rest of us can butt out, frankly.

I was lucky 'only' 3 yrs from starting ttc to having a baby via icsi. Partly because the issue was so severe it couldnt be disputed we needed to be referred after 1.5 yrs ttc.

That is why its such a lottery though some people treated within 2 yrs others 5.

I think if most were told at the beginning it would take another 2 yrs from referral, might consider going private anyway. But as usual its not really made clear.
It then took another 1yr 4m to conceive dc2 so 2yrs from choosing to, despite needing no tests and i have been very lucky.
But it would be interesting to see what percentage have to give up on ivf because 1 or multiple rounds are unsuccessful. They cant seem to resolve a lot of issues with it not working

So you see OP, your "why don't you just adopt ?" argument has no merit in the real world. Even SW's recommend Fertility Treatment as a precursor to adoption (at least ours did - cant speak for anyone else).

This is simply not true for anyone I have ever met who has adopted or thought about adopting. Is it possible that the SW and GP felt that for you, going straight into adoption would not have been the right thing to do?

We adopted without even considering fertility treatment and no questions were ever raised because we were clear about why we were doing this.

Still haven't had chance to catch up on the whole thread but in the meantime...

But it seems to be only people who have fertility problems who are told by strangers that they should do it.

Mrs DeVere I don't think I have told people they should do. I think I've said I would do it, or try to do it, if it were me. I might have wondered why more people don't do it. If I have told anyone to do that, I'm sorry.

Mrsstarlord yes I do see that and I'm shocked. I don't understand the process as I've said countless times, but I can't see how anyone has the right to insist that a couple who is desperate for a family, must go through fertility treatment before they'll even be considered for adoption. If anyone knows why this is, please share. Apologies is someone has already explained this, ignore if that is the case.

Why didn't you adopt rather than give birth? If you don't have children yet, are you going to go down the adoption route rather than ttc?

I do have children, yes. Well, because conceiving was not a problem. I have always wanted a resource-draining number of 4 children. This will no doubt be frowned upon on here, but we stopped using contraception when we knew we would be happy to conceive. If we hadn't conceived, both my DH and I think that we would have gone down the adoption route rather than the IVF route.

If adoption had been the way of us having our family, I'm sure we'd have ended up with a much smaller family - two of our DCs share a room, and I could be wrong, but I don't think that's allowed with adoption.

Out of interest, MrsD why did you decided on birth children, rather than adopted children for your last two DCs?

Having read your last but one post misfit it has left me puzzling as to why you haven't adopted.

I wonder the same thing. Why are you urging women who have fertility issues to adopt when you could perfectly well adopt yourself. And have you any idea how patronising it sounds to those of us who have adopted after failed IVF to say this I wouldn't want to adopt after I'd exhausted every other avenue, I would want to try and adopt as a next step, rather than the last step

Some of the statements you make are so facile when you haven't had them tested in any way.

You have no idea of the difficulties of parenting a child with a big black hole in their life. Absolutely no clue.

DS has a year of his life almost completely missing, few records, no photos no videos, no clothes, no favorite cuddly toys, no birth announcement cards, no red book. The only thing you know is that they're a 1 year old who is phobic about water and heights, who has never had enough to eat and so eats until they're sick... every meal... for months, who can't be separated from their sippy cup of water presumably because water was rationed but who knows because I wasn't there and DS can't tell me; their first reaction to you might be fear - DS cried and wouldn't make eye contact with me for weeks, couldn't be cuddled or soothed when he cried because I wasn't his mum I was a total stranger.

And do you know what was most painful about that? It wasn't that I didn't get the new born experience that others get, it was that I couldn't and never can "fix" it for him. I have a perfect lovely boy who I can never be quite good enough for.

And that's only the first 6 months - I won't go into the fights for support, the lack of recognition of the issues that come with his adoption "but he's too young to remember".

I adore him, he is easy to adore because he's fantastic and I'm could never have produced a child half so amazing myself, I'm glad that I had failed IVF first because otherwise I would have had a different child and that seems inconceivable to me now.

But for you to dismiss DS's adoption as some kind of last resort and imply that someone doing it prior to or instead of fertility treatment shows some kind of moral superiority does stick in my throat rather, particularly an armchair warrior whose taking a theoretical high ground only.

We adopted without even considering fertility treatment and no questions were ever raised because we were clear about why we were doing this.

Then I think you were lucky.

DH and I went straight to adoption bypassing fertility treatment and I was grilled about it, even though I was also clear on my reasons. Oddly, DH wasn't.

If anyone knows why this is, please share

Or you could just read the posts answering that particular issue.

I don't understand why it should cause offence to say that I know I wouldn't want IVF if I were faced with infertility issues?

I don't find it offensive, but I do find it naive.

Adopted children, almost without exception, have significant issues which means parenting them is very different to parenting birth children. Many people feel they can't cope with these issues (like FAS, attachment disorder, violence etc) or with maintaining contact with birth parents, or with not being able to name their child or... Ad infinitum.

When you start to go through this process and these issues become magnified, it's easy to see why having birth children - by whatever means - becomes attractive as an option for many.

crossed posts with Kew who puts it better than I ever could.

There was one day on our prep course which became known as the "Day of Doom" which was the day they covered the most likely problems that children might arrive with including medical and behavioural issues, children born as a result of incest or rape, drug dependent new-borns and foetal alcohol syndome, extreme prematurity (DS was born at 26 weeks).

You are walked through how you might tell a child their story when it involves the rape of a 12 year old and how to promote bonding and attachment in a child who has changed carers 4 times in their first year.

People drop out of the adoption process for good reasons - because they decide they just can't deal with it. really committed people who have got further than you OP, who actually got off their arse and signed up and got interviewed went through the initial parts of the process and tehy still weren't able to get to the end.

Which is why I find your glib assertions unconvincing because I have personally known people more committed than you try and fail.

And I just know that if I had terminal cancer I would refuse further treatment. I just know I would, my mum had cancer and so did both of my grandfathers and although I don't have any direct experience of having cancer myself it is possible to know I wouldn't want further treatment?

Isn't it?

If anyone knows why this is, please share

It's fine if you are absolutely clear that you don't want to do fertility treatment (or even try to concieve at all) and it's not for you (well, you might get a grilling but it shouldn't stop you).

But you have to show commitment to adoption. You have to have stopped exploring conception for the forseeable future. And they'll want you to explain how you've explored it and why it's not/no longer your route forwards. If someone were to tell me that they are trying to decide whether to have IVF or adopt, my experience is that the vast majority of those people will need to try IVF first. Childrens services are very wary of taking on anyone who doesn't seem to have absolutely moved beyond conception in the way they present themselves. I think Tinker has said she seemed too ambiguous about it, not certain of adoption, and the inevitable response to that will be 'go and use your free IVF cycle and then reevaluate'. That would be my response too, in the nicest way, because adoption is SO different in many ways to having a child by birth, you need to be clear in your own mind that this is definitely what you want.

Would like to have any ideas as to how 20,000 women who might want to adopt if they can't have IVF, are supposed to adopt 3,500-4000 children.

And YY to the "Day of Doom". The day when people come in the room with some smiles, bright eyed and bushy tailed, in that nervous prospective adopter sense, and leave the most subdued bunch of people in a some distance radius!

To state the bleeding obvious, Kewcumber there is no comparison between choosing not to have cancer treatment, and choosing not to have IVF.

One will result in dying earlier and the other will result in not giving birth to a baby.

Absolutely no comparison at all I wasn't talking about IVF. I was talking about cancer I have watched two family members die from cancer and one with apparently terminal cancer survive. But I know I wouldn't have more treatment when death was inevitable, because I've seen the choices they made - some chose to have further treatment, some didn't, that I can be sure how I would react in the same position.

Surely you're not really going to tell me that I can't be so sure. Why can't I?

And have you any idea how patronising it sounds to those of us who have adopted after failed IVF to say this I wouldn't want to adopt after I'd exhausted every other avenue, I would want to try and adopt as a next step, rather than the last step.

FFS!

Would it OK for me to know that I would never want IVF as long that I didn't suggest that I might want to adopt?

Honestly, some people on here need to get over themselves.

There is absolutely nothing that anyone is allowed to say about IVF or adoption that isn't patronising, is there? No I haven't been there, but you don't have to be so angry at me for having an opinion. Are you so angry and bitter because I haven't had fertility issues? Or because I haven't adopted, or both?

It's not my fault that adoption for you was the last resort is it? You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder/feel guilty about that or why would you have a problem with me saying it?

It's like I'm some kind of freak because I know I wouldn't want IVF, and somehow that automatically means I'm not allowed to think that I would want to try and adopt.

Good job you're not on the adoption recruitment committee!