thinking that illiteracy is now universally acceptable in everday life

[MarytheContrary]

"would of" "should of" "could of" - They/Their/They're - lose/loose - bought/brought - weighed/weighted

a. that's not illiteracy, it's bad grammar or spelling
b. no, it's not "universally acceptable" as the myriad frothy threads like this show

so YABU

Really?! You do surprise me. I have it comeing out of my ears.

But yes, point taken.

Languages aren't really alive or dead. There's no point worrying about it, or thinking that'll be the 'death' of English. In that sense, English 'died' long ago, when it ceased being Anglo-Saxon and took on bits of French, when it ceased being Middle English and had an influx of Latin and Greek, when it ceased being Early Modern and .... etc etc etc.

I'm afraid I think it's utterly pointless to have a view on desirability of chance. Do you have any evidence, for example, that vocabulary is truncated? I find it extremely hard to believe. OTOH, I do buy that syntactic structures have changed, but then, they've been doing that backwards and forwards for centuries.

Oh, Jesus. I can spell coming. Sorry.

Joining this thread late, but I also felt compelled to challenge your (incorrect!) use of the word illiteracy.

I have many clients who are illiterate; they cannot read or write. Many of them are stuck in a social support system that they cannot understand of navigate (try filling out a housing benefits application online when you can neither read nor write or navigating the many hospital appointments you have with a long - term chronic illness)... It's heart breaking and they often say they feel ashamed, embarrassed, and helpless.

There is very little in the way of support for them- many courses offer free ESL for immigrants but not basic reading and writing for those who already speak English but cannot read or write at all.

I agree that poor grammar is annoying- but it's not a heart breaking social issue.

It's nothing new.

crazy, are you labouring under the delusion that only you live in the 'real world'?

How do you think the rest of us got jobs?

Hint: for me, it was disclosing dyslexia and letting them make up their own minds about errors resulting from that.

grumpasaur i have been looking around locally to volunteer to help adults with reading and writing but I can't find anything - do you know of a charity that I might approach? My dad used to help out at a class and it used to make him so sad to see how these people struggled so much after being failed in some way at school

Yes you have to have rules. Native speakers of English naturally understand the rules of their own language - the pedantic arguments only over cover a very small part of the full euphony of the english language. (see what I did there ;) )

But consider who sets the rules.

A study of the history of almost any word will show you that it existed with multiple spellings for quite sometime.

People used to write as they spoke before standardisation happened! Even our beloved Shakespeare used spellings that would make modern grammar fiends weep.

But then along came some learned men who decided that we needed to standardise everything.

And then lots of people wanted to teach the illiterate and uneducated peoples of the countries of the Great British Empire.

And then the education of the unwashed masses of the poor in England itself.

Where does the power lie in all of these choices? It's almost always change from above and from positions of power.....

Change in language is good, change in language should be embraced. We don't yet know how the modern literature of today will be judged by the future - but I suspect some of it will be as widely appreciated as any 18th C, 19th C classic.

All we have proven is that trying to write down the spelling and rules of English is a bit like trying to stop the world from spinning.

Change happens - get over it.

In my experience people with dyslexia are very good written communicators.
I'm referring to pure laziness.

Jeanne I suppose one could see it as pointless in the grand scheme of things, taking a qualitative view on language changes, but equally I think that's a pretty nihilistic viewpoint.

And yes, that's a fair point about Anglo-Saxon and linguistic impact of the Normans. Though arguably that'd be the 'death' of Anglo-Saxon (in its evolution into Middle English) rather than of English as we know it now.

I suppose what I'm really saying is that when languages evolve dramatically it's because the culture it supports and facilitates is doing so as well. As, for example, after the Norman invasion. There are many things that I love about the culture that was facilitated by C18-20 English; that culture is now very much in decline. While I know perfectly well I can't change that, and also that mine isn't a very fashionable viewpoint, I think that decline is a shame.

How can you tell which is which?

And how can you be sure what seems to be 'laziness' is not, say, the result of bad access to education, or bad teaching?

People are very good at casually excusing dyslexics from their insults, as if this somehow makes those insults less hurtful. But, it doesn't. Because you lot can't tell whether we're dyslexic or not, unless we mention it. And, oddly enough, going around with a big 'here be dyslexics' T Shirt hasn't yet caught on.

So, people like you who take pride in judging 'laziness' contribute to a culture in which it is acceptable to make people with learning disabilities feel shit.

Do you see? I know you don't mean to do that, but it's the end result.

Though arguably that'd be the 'death' of Anglo-Saxon (in its evolution into Middle English) rather than of English as we know it now. Yes, that was exactly my point.

All English 'dies'. Every day.

I think this is fascinating, btw. I really, really love what you are saying about truth and language. I'm not sure I am convinced, but it is really interesting.

I have problems with numbers. Therefore I get someone to check over my work before I present it.
Attention to detail.

That's nice.

Me too.

How lucky we both are, to have people ready and able to check our work.

Wouldn't it be shit if we not only didn't have that, but also had idiots judging us for it?

Bit- I am not sure actually! I have tried to find some in the South London area, to no avail! It may be worthwhile looking into charities which support groups known to have low literacy rates? I know many women from the traveling community cannot read or write, so that may be a good place to start? Definitely needed though!

Or, some one stop shop places to support immigrants / people who are vulnerable?

AIBU to not give a flying fuck still.

I have been looking for years - just can't find anything near me. It's something I feel really strongly about and TBH people getting het up about "would of" really need to have a think about what true illiteracy means for people, practically and emotionally and wind their bloody necks in

Agree strongly, BitOut.

You might look to a dyslexia charity? My mum used to work with one, and though their stated focus was dyslexia, in practice, they often provided literacy support to people who just had generally poor literacy, including immigrants.

Now that's a good idea Jeanne I'll take a look

Anyone unsure of what illiteracy really means in modern Britian might like to watch this fantastic video then unclench their arses about apostrophes

Are we not doing people a favour correcting these common mistakes, otherwise they'll be going through life oblivious to it all. It surprises me how many people don't know the difference between their and there, where and were, bought and brought, to and too.......they're all basic words that people should know.

Depends how it's done, tara.

I would not take it as a 'favour' if someone corrected me on here, TBH. I'd take it as bloody rude.

Spelling mistakes, written dialect and just general wrongness with language is the sign of a society with...

...almost universal literacy.

Weren't expecting that, were you? Nevertheless, it is true. Language remains "pure" when only the well-educated elite are able to make the little marks.

So let me get this right, starting a thread about grammar and spelling means you're a dickhead on MN... Riiiight.

OP, YANBU.

The OP didn't start a thread about spelling and grammar (well not the title anyway) she started it about illiteracy and asked if it's universally acceptable in everyday life?

I answered - bad grammar is not the same as illiteracy. And no, neither bad grammar nor illiteracy is universally acceptable. Because the former is so often unacceptable to so many people (esp on MN) and because the latter is surely not acceptable to anyone in 21st century Britain

Bit, she's referring to someone quoting ScottishMummy upthread, not to the OP.