to think the NHS is a bit crap

[eyebags63]

And because it is treated almost as a kind of religion nobody is allowed to say anything negative about it at all. And actually just because it is "free" (a mere 110bn a year) doesn't mean we should be eternally grateful for bad treatment.

My experiences are of elderly relatives being mistreated in hospital, non-existent services in some areas, screw-ups, buck passing, treatment delays, being treated as a number with no dignity or privacy, a significant number of staff that appear not to care one little bit. I could go on.

In other health systems people can get referred and treated within days or weeks. Here we accept that waiting for months on end in pain is normal. We accept exhausted staff, lack of access, dirty hospitals, ambulances queuing outside hospitals and restricted treatment resources.

Yes it is "free at the point of use", but isn't that half of the problem? Walk into any GP surgery or A&E and you can witness so many abuses of the system. On the other hand genuine patients are often seem to be treated as a nuisance.

I'm not saying the NHS should be scrapped but surely it is about time we at least looked at different ways of doing things.

Wobbly - I go on the Inspire, ov-ca site, and it often comes up as how their cyst/tumour was discovered. Routine ultrasound/PAP smear. A lot of the members seem to be from Cal or NYC. Perhaps have more extensive insurance plans? A friend of mine, early 50's, has an annual general check-up

Interesting - maybe they're classed as higher risk because of family history and therefore received ultrasounds? An annual physical is normal but annual smears are no longer recommended for normal risk women.

A good proportion of nonogenarians rarely need to see a doctor.

I'm not sure that's true. They use emergency ambulances more than any other age group, for instance.

And if you think in terms of cost, nonagenarians have had 30-odd years of pension payments and all the other benefits that being an OAP entails.

Yabu - it's amazing.

I have a parent who works in a very busy A&E department. They are overworked, underpaid and have more shit to deal with on a daily basis then people have to in a lifetime.

Being kicked, spat at, sworn at, telling people the worst possible news, seeing horrendous things, dealing with scum and druggies and all sorts.

Also i have had a sister born at 26 weeks (18 years ago) mum nearly died and so did sister, my nan has had cancer which she lost her fight to last year and all the way through the NHS have been amazing.

I have just found out that the baby I am carrying has a heart defect called TGA. We were seen at specialist hospital in London the day after the scan with a number of foetal cardiac experts and we now have a team liaising with 4 different hospitals that will handle mine and the babies care from now until after he is born and has his open heart surgery.

I cannot praise them enough.

The problem is and this is a fact that nobody wants to say or admit that just like our benefits system the NHS is overloaded by scum bags who use it at their whim - most who don't even contribute to society and then all they do is complain about it.

GP surgeries are over run, A&E has people turning up with headaches and backache they have had for months but haven't bothered going to see a doctor and many, many similar cases that are just ridiculous.band guess what - they have to see them. Yes legally.

If people were smarter the NHS wouldn't be so busy and could take proper care of the patients that really need and deserve it.

The NHS is not perfect but we are lucky to have it.

Not sure what point you are making, Limer?

You could argue that winter fuel allowances and bus passes save the NHS money, because warm, active pensioners are less likely to fall ill.

And also that the NHS is the victim of its own success. People wouldn't be living longer if they hadn't been treated for serious conditions in their 50's and 60's. But no one's going to argue that we shouldn't cure people because they'll live longer!

And I think amicissima is right about the very elderly. My mother died at 94. In the 5 years before her death, she was twice taken to hospital after falls. No treatment, just a check-up. But no visits to or by her GP. No medication except paracetamol. If you live that long, you tend to have a good constitution.

We're overly grateful because its free at the point of use. I prefer the service i get from my vet, i can always get an appointment, he never dismisses anything as "just a virus" referrals don't have to be fought for, i'm seen by my choice of practitioner at a time to suit me.

The NHS thought it was going to mend a few broken bones and wipe out some diseases with vaccines. It is unsustainable and it has become unaffordable but it will be a brave politician who says that out loud.

And how much do you pay for your vet, Oodles?

Why is the NHS unsustainable and why is it unaffordable? It's a third more cost-effective than the U.S. system.

And for the overwhelming majority of people, it works.

I want to shout that out, loud and clear, because the more people moan about it, on relatively trivial things like waiting in A&E for more than 4 hours with a finger that needs stitching, the more politicians are going to feel they can say 'it is broken' and soften us up to moving to a private system.

A really interesting thread, thanks.

Someone upthread mentioned how she fell ill while in the UK (not a UK citizen and not entitled to free NHS treatment) but no one seemed to want to hear when she tried to tell them and show her own EHIC card. Does anyone know how well this reciprocal system is working?

We had a very similar situation on holiday in Greece, one of the children had to be admitted for three days, and although his father kept waving his EHIC card and his travel insurance documents at the admin desk, they didn't seem remotely interested. No bill was presented, or sent on later.

I would love to see the alcohol industry and tobacco industry taking a bit more responsibility for the consequences of their products. Swingeing tax increases ring fenced for health services? Legalise drugs so we can tax them to pay for MH services? Massive tax on all foods that contain more than double RDA of sugars and/or fats, to fund type 2 diabetes clinics?

I'm just chucking these thoughts out for discussion, I have to go out shortly and will look forward to looking at the thread again later.

Meanwhile, OP no yanbu, criticising the NHS for a long time has been classed as anathema. Rather like daring to wonder in public if massive migration was possibly not an unmitigated good thing until very recently. Even now saying something like 'without more investment in supporting children who do not have English/Welsh as a first language, surely all the children in a school with high levels of non-native speaking families will suffer' is liable to get you flamed.

My vet charges about £40 per consultation, x Rays are in the region of £100 plus extra for extra slides/film. My dog spent a month at a referral centre after a serious injury and illness. The total cost there was nearly 20k and the invoice was broken down into every last bandage and syringe. We have insurance which covered the majority of it because we're responsible dog owners.
I also have health insurance for my family. We pay a hell of a lot less in insurance despite the criminal ipt than we do in the various taxes.

Nhs needs an insurance based contribution rather than the present system. I'd also like to see invoices presented for everything because frankly some people take the piss.

And for the overwhelming majority of people, it works.

It should work for everyone.

The NHS is the biggest employer in the country and the 5th largest in the world. Given the tiny size and population you do have to wonder how effective it can ever be. It has to be the only company in the world where having too many customers is a bad thing.It can easily remain free at the point of use if it's broken down into service providers. At the moment it's just a procuring service, Insurance based systems are the only way of stopping the rot.

We've had two private firms that had to back out, in the middle of their contracts, because they couldn't make a profit. Hinchingbroke(?) hospital and the shambles over the switch from NHS Direct and whatever they were contracted to provide, 111, I think, in the South West.

Oodles - Well - good for you! I'm v glad you're paying a lot of taxes because they're paying to keep lots of other people, and me, alive. That's how a civilised society works. Individual insurance only benefits the individual. I think health is far too important to be decided by wealth.

Wobbly - no system in the world works for everyone. We are not living in cloud cuckoo land.

I don't actually want to pay for other people's drunken injuries, boob jobs, gastric band surgeries. The NHS has come too far from it's original purpose which has made it too expensive.

FWIW, I have had private healthcare several times and it wasn't so amazing.
I had something go extremely wrong with one procedure and the nurses were clueless and panicking as much as I was.

NHS isn't perfect, but it has saved many lives. With more money it would be truly amazing.
I also wish nurses and support staff and care staff were paid better.

Nurses and support staff could be paid much better and their working conditions could be much better outside of the vast machine of the NHS.

I agree OP. It seems to be quite random whether you get the right treatment or not and it seems to be beset by staffing problems and delays, which are really the mark of a service which doesn't do its job very well. Even as a very healthy person, personally I have suffered from pneumonia not being diagnosed and properly treated despite 3 doctor appointments (got the impression that the doctor didn't have enough time and no interest in seeing someone who could still just about walk and had no more serious ongoing conditions), and had to pay for an MRI scan myself which disclosed a serious back problem - because the NHS dealt with it by putting me on a lengthy waiting list for physio (which in itself was of such a low quality and so general and non-specific, it was a waste of time).

But dare to suggest replacement and people are up in arms. Of course most Northern European countries have health systems that work perfectly well - I have experienced them and found them better than the UK (in France, Germany and The Netherlands). I do notice that in these countries, its more tied to current and former employment, and that if you don't work or contribute tax, you are more likely to get a more basic system provided by the State. You could say that's whats happening in the UK right now, and certainly even in socialist Sweden, there is this link between employment and health care. Perhaps it encourages people to live more healthily and try to avoid lifestyle related diseases such as late onset adult diabetes?

Of course it saves lives, etc. - that is what a health service is supposed to do. It isn't a mark that it should never be questioned.

ehic system: depends on the hospital
when fil broke his leg in the uk (he is resident in another eu country) the foreign office was at his side 5 mins after he was admitted to the ward.

I lived in France for a few years. There, you pay for all your appointments, and the government reimburses a percentage of what you've paid. You can either pick up the rest of the cost yourself, or you can take out insurance to cover it (and the insurers aren't allowed to hold pre-existing conditions against you). Same for prescriptions.

Also, you don't have to do everything via a GP, so if you want to see a specialist, you get a recommendation or look one up in the yellow pages and book an appointment direct - and the payment is the same. You pay up front and the government and your insurer reimburse you.

If you don't have any money or insurance, there is a safety net - but I've never used it, so I don't know what it's like.

I quite liked this system.

I've also spent some time in the US, and there you are seriously f**d if you don't have insurance. Since the downturn, it's not unusual to see people in business suits sitting at major road junctions with signs saying "Need money for heart medication". They're begging because they've lost their jobs and the insurance that went with.

Every time I see this, I thank God I'm not in that system.

I think the trouble with the NHS is that it's not consistent. There are some great people working in it - but there are some stinkers too, and in my experience it's pot luck what you get.

Completely agree Oodles.

I won't go into details but I have a certain skill set that means at certain times of year I spend time at the local A&E where my relative works so I have spent quite a time seeing first hand just how many of the people come to A&E who don't need to!!!

I agree that we need to get over the whole worrying about people thing because it's just too much and people should pay a fine or something.

Missed appointments are unacceptable. I also agree about gastric bands, boob, nose jobs etc and other unnecessary vanity procedures people should pay for themselves.

Of course there are exceptions before people jump on me about breast reconstruction for cancer patients etc - of course that isn't included.

They have 'regulars' at A&E that turn up drunk or drugged up hitting and cursing staff and other people all the time and they take up so many resources - let alone the fucking idiots turning up with headaches - 'have you taken any pain relief' - answer is no.

Oh my favourite I saw was a mum who said her daughter needed to be seen ASAP as she was sure she was going to die as she hadn't pood in 3 weeks and was really unwell. The kid was sat there happy and laughing eating a fucking selection box!!!!

She was fine. Had been pooing fine. Didn't understand why she was there.

Just a few examples of the millions using our system with no brains or
Common sense.

I think the op has a point.
I have read many threads on here where elderly relatives are not cared dor adequately in hospital or when no dr is availabe (in a fucking HOSPITAL) when there is an urgent need.
not to forget the inadequate provision for new mothers on post natal wards and the sometimes dismissive attitude from gp's (take 2 paracetamol and wait and see...haha)

mousmous-(take 2 paracetamol and wait and see...haha)

DW and me call our GP, Doctor Panadol, after hearing the term used in the Middle East.

I think yabu and are obviously lucky enough that you have not relied on the nhs for life saving treatment or treatment that would change your life. My dad almost died from a rare brain infection called encephalitis. He was in hospital for several months where he was cared for on an intensive care unit and high dependency unit by staff who were incredibly skilled and compassionate. He had access to excellent neuro surgeons and physiotherapists who were able to improve his quality of life following the illness and give me my dad back. My ds was born with cleft lip and palate. Through the nhs we have had incredible support during my pregnancy and beyond. Within hours of my ds being born, my dedicated cleft specialist was at my side and supporting with feeding issues. His subsequent surgeries have been nothing short of amazing. Skilled surgeons have given my son what nature did not. This is priceless. Had I been in another country such support would not be available or would have cost thousands. We are lucky to have the nhs. Do not take it for granted.

I've spent a bit of time in A&E recently, and would've spent a lot more time there were it not for the fact that I'm now with an excellent GP surgery.

My old GP surgery organised an ultrasound scan when this issue last flared up. When it showed up nothing, but I was still in pain, they shrugged their shoulders and left me to it. Thankfully I still had cocodamol from a previous issue, and could take that until it eased.

This time it hasn't eased, and has been a lot worse - my new GPs arranged for an immediate admittance into hospital onto a ward, and when I was discharged to have a scan (next Tuesday), they called to check up on me. When I told them over the phone that I wasn't coping with the pain, they offered to re-admit me, but warned me I'd be waiting a while because of the bed crisis, so they also offered to up my pain relief.

Whereas with my old GP surgery I was left floundering in agony waiting six weeks for a scan, resulting in more A&E trips taking up even more time and resources, my new GP surgery rushed through the scan referral, have given me a definite plan of action and gave me tramadol so I can at least get on with my life and function while I'm waiting, and I haven't had to go back to A&E since their phone call.

Just shows the importance of good GP and community medicine services. There are too many GPs who shouldn't be in the profession - my old GP for one, who has made so many mistakes it's unbelievable.