to think the NHS is a bit crap

[eyebags63]

And because it is treated almost as a kind of religion nobody is allowed to say anything negative about it at all. And actually just because it is "free" (a mere 110bn a year) doesn't mean we should be eternally grateful for bad treatment.

My experiences are of elderly relatives being mistreated in hospital, non-existent services in some areas, screw-ups, buck passing, treatment delays, being treated as a number with no dignity or privacy, a significant number of staff that appear not to care one little bit. I could go on.

In other health systems people can get referred and treated within days or weeks. Here we accept that waiting for months on end in pain is normal. We accept exhausted staff, lack of access, dirty hospitals, ambulances queuing outside hospitals and restricted treatment resources.

Yes it is "free at the point of use", but isn't that half of the problem? Walk into any GP surgery or A&E and you can witness so many abuses of the system. On the other hand genuine patients are often seem to be treated as a nuisance.

I'm not saying the NHS should be scrapped but surely it is about time we at least looked at different ways of doing things.

In regards to obesity, I know so many people here who have had surgery to deal with weight loss. I'm overweight and the first thing the gp asked was did I want a referral to get it done. It wouldn't help me because for me it's psychological and connected to my autism. So instead I was referred to a specialist eating disorders clinic. I waited 2 months for an appointment and they saw me twice a week for almost 2 years until my eating was under control.

Hedgehogs has stated that in Sweden some procedures have a token charge. Sweden is often held up as a good example of well run state services.

Why not here?

Hillingdon it is interesting, clearly we are some way from adopting the relative providing personal cares system in the UK, I expect in Greece the care would be provided by extended family, ???religious organisations or charities, or provided by the state to a lesser degree.

Having said all that how many posts have we seen about people having to go and e.g. fill water jugs and all the stuff about neglect within the health system .

I do think EU is less concerned with defensive health care and perhaps has fewer people seeking solutions to the insoluble, comfort etc from their health system

hedgehogs so you see an OT for autism support? is this in an acute care type hospital or a community setting? one to one or group?

don't answer if it will 'out' you just curious

do you have any idea what % of Sweedish tax goes to the health care system?

what is the public satisfaction like?

Prescriptions: we pay the full amount for medicines until we've paid a certain amount in a year and then they're free for the rest of the year. I don't know what the amount is as luckily we've never been ill enough to reach it. People with certain conditions are exempt eg diabetes, and children.

what would be really interesting would be to see a break down of what each country pays for what

People pay for prescriptions. The charge was introduced because the post war Labour government underestimated how much an NHS would cost. In 1951 when it was introduced people were so grateful for an NHS there was little complaint. We should consider charging for GP visits. Only those who pay for prescriptions would pay. Therefore no little old ladies would be charged. Exemptions could be made for people with chronic conditions or those whom the doctor has asked to come back for a follow up visit. The main problem I see with this option is people thinking they were owed a prescription because they'd paid for a visit ie antibiotics for a viral infection. However it may stop people running to the doctors with mild sore throats or coughs.

Fascinating thread.

I support the "free at the point of delivery" principle but refuse to believe that nothing can be improved upon by some outsourcing/privatisation/whatever.

I know there are plenty of superb healthcare workers, I also know there are plenty of abysmal ones. Really can't understand the posters who've said the equivalent of "well the NHS saved my life so it must be perfect". You don't hear that level of support for any other public service. In fact, you hear quite the opposite when people discuss schools, councils, the police force etc.

It is interesting as well that a lot of people cite the 'run over by a bus' scenario as the reason why the NHS is wonderful and untouchable, as far as I can make out EU/OZ/NZ and even US people get health care for accidents.

I guess recovery rehab in the States you might run into trouble with costs but EU and Oz you would be fine?

I can't say a bad thing about the NHS. We'd crumble without it, no doubt about that!.
Thank Goodness we have access to health care in England. In America you have to pay. Begs the question where do Americans taxes go, but it's not my country, so not my argument.

Limer

yes there has been this kind of state supported 'the NHS is wonderful' thing going one for years

2013 had for just my family - DD born very prematurely. Spent 10 weeks in hospital, supported at home by outreach team. On specialised milk for first year. Consultant care for general health, eyes, RSV injections for first winter.
Other family members - one pelvic reconstruction and hip replacement, one large cancerous cyst removed from jaw, many GP appointments. Cost in UK terms - our gladly paid taxation. We can never repay them for our care. Comparable cost for DD alone in US system? Half a million - one million dollars. She wouldn't be eligible for insurance. Ever.

YABVU.

Comparing the UK to Scandinavia is like comparing apples with oranges. Sweden, until recently, was a much more homogeneous society with a higher average income. It's like continually holding up the example of Finland's education system as a model for the UK. Totally different countries with totally different issues.

We're much more like the USA in terms of diversity and extremes of wealth.

Clarinet There is a clinic on the hospital site called 'habilitation'. They're the support service for people and children with all disabilities. I see people on the autism team. They have doctor, occupational therapists, psychologists and social workers. Over the years they have sorted out my disability benefits, provided aids like a weighted blanket and special phone, arranged social services home support, cbt. Currently we're working on menu planning and food management.

My dd also has autism so with her they went into her school and trained her teachers and spoke to her classmates about what autism is and how they could support her. She's now away at university and the habilitation near her have liased with the university to make sure she has a mentor and supported accommodation.

Basically it's a one stop shop for anything related to your disability.

No, I didn't write, "The NHS saved my life so it must be perfect."

Bigtrouble sounds like a bad year hope this one is better!

Just to point out it sounds like it was the NHS portion of tax for most of your street too!

However it has to be said if you were in e.g. France you would have been treated for all of the above, you would generally have been in a 'nicer' i.e. cleaner hospital with better food.
I don't know about prem outcomes In France but cancer survival has been better (again I have no up to date figures and kind of should be working rather than googling) and again historically better waiting lists for orthopaedic care.

Thanks hedgehog sounds like a great service.

I really must go and do some work sorry!

I don't agree with saying 'ah well Sweden is different'.

They still have people, no different to you and I. What do they do differently and maybe we can learn from them as opposed to wringing our hands and refusing to look at any ideas for reform

Also, to throw something else in. How many UK people have private medical insurance. My DS was a junior manager and she got it in a previous role.

there was an interesting thread recently when someone was thinking of going to live in america, and people said 'you won't be able to afford health insurance'. a couple of posters said that since obamacare was introduced things were quite different. Would be interesting to know if that is how other us posters have found it

I am on Obamacare. As we are fairly well off I pay full premium for my insurance. A family of 4 on up to $90k (£60k) will qualify for a subsidy. In my state, 90% of people on Obamacare receive a subsidy.

Since the ACA was passed insurance companies can't do many of the shitty things they used to do - like drop people from their policies when they got sick, charge them more for pre-existing conditions, refuse to sell them insurance, etc.

Comparable cost for DD alone in US system? Half a million - one million dollars. She wouldn't be eligible for insurance. Ever

Actually she would be eligible for insurance, and it wouldn't cost her any more than anyone else.

do you have any idea what % of Sweedish tax goes to the health care system?

14% goes to healthcare.

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But Thyme, Labour are not saying that they're going to reverse that. They're talking about spending more money on the NHS behemoth. Not social care. In my experience when Labour throw money at the NHS it ends up going into the pockets of 'management consultants' working on 'projects' which seem to do very little except for produce lots of paperwork about what their apparent purpose is then disappear off into the ether before they actually do anything to be replaced by another 'project' with exactly the same people but a slightly different acronym who again produce a lot of paperwork in a nice shiny office far away from any patients but never actually do anything before they are dissolved and the cycle starts again.

I work in community pharmacy, and the amount of unused medicine that people bring back because they have stockpiled/changed on to other meds/died/not using it properly is shocking. I binned £300 worth of unused inhalers in one day last week. Such a waste.

Salad- that interesting. I made a comment on another thread about stock piling of medicines because they were free and told that wasn't true.

I still think making it free doesn't allow some people to think sensibly or even to care one way or another. It's free who cares!