To suggest immunisations should be a legal requirement?

[rednailsredheart]

Look at it like this:

Wearing seatbelts it purely a safety issue. It's also a legal requirement in the UK to protect car passengers.

So why is immunisation not a legal requirement?

Likewise, drinking and driving is a criminal offence, due to the danger to the passengers and other drivers/people around you.

But deliberately choosing to let your child become a carrier of a totally preventable disease, infecting people around them (including those too young for immunisations), is totally fine? If someone doesn't vaccinate their child, then the child subsequently becomes gravely ill, why aren't the parents charged with neglect?

Makes me think of this article

ONION

Will definitely check then, Pandas. I thought the main issue was with the newer acellular versions of the vaccine not being as effective as the old ones (but with fewer risks of side effects).

leedy- of course, but I just wanted to point out that vaccines are not without risk.

But with vaccinations you can't really separate out the benefit to your children and the benefit to other people, because your children benefit both from the vaccine and from the herd immunity that results from most people being vaccinated.

I know when I got my child vaccinated, I was definitely not just thinking about him, but about how pre-vaccines millions of people died from common diseases, and how important it is that we keep these diseases extremely limited for ALL our sake, including people who can't get vaccines now. I hope that doesn't make me peculiar.

If we all give up on social responsibility, we're fucked as a society.

"I hope that doesn't make me peculiar. "

Not at all. I think vaccination is (generally) amazing. Like, WE GOT RID OF SMALLPOX. IT ONLY LIVES IN A JAR NOW.

Leedy, that is an issue too, yes.

dreaming, but many of the diseases that were common killers -even here in the UK have been eradicated because of improvements to public water systems, sewerage, treatments, better nutrition and housing.
Diseases which were common killers in the UK like cholera, typhoid, scarlet fever, even TB to a large extent have been beaten by factors other than immunisation.

Dreamingbohemian, your ideas of social responsibility are naive at best.

It only works one way - if you are on the other end of it, possibly arriving there through vaccine damage, then you find out it really doesn't exist.

And yes, society is pretty fucked up. I can't walk through town without people,questionning whether my child should be there. I have had to fight tooth and claw to get her educated, and she is regularly turned away at the doctors due to being 'unexaminable' . Once again, social responsibility only counts one way. There is no help for those of us who previously though as you do - that vaccination is a good thing, both for my children and for society as a whole. I haven't given up on social responsibility, I just don't want to take the (increased') risk that my other children will react to vaccination in the same way. Both for their sakes, and mine (since I know already that social responsibility does not cut it when help is needed)

how many posters on this thread know their immunity status

Definitely immune to rubella as I had it twice as a child and then was vaccinated at 12, and then had a test while pregnant.

Polio - vaccinated and had booster but not sure if in date

Tetanus - last booster in 1997.

Smallpox - probably in the minority in being vaccinated against this.

I've also had measles, chicken pox and mumps illnesses as a child.

And slapped cheek as an adult (hadn't even heard of it until caught it from my son when he was 3 so definitely not immune when pregnant and so lucky I didn't come into contact with it)

I wasn't immunised against whooping cough or diptheria and I didn't have the BCG either.

Oh yeah, my last tetanus booster was 1996. I fainted off a stage into the percussion section of a symphony orchestra. (TRUE STORY)

Thanks for everyone's well thought out and balanced decision making on this subject. It makes the increased risk to my health due to diminished herd immunity so much easier to live with.

bigbluestars

dreaming, but many of the diseases that were common killers -even here in the UK have been eradicated because of improvements to public water systems, sewerage, treatments, better nutrition and housing.

Ever heard of a multi channel strategy ?

And with the reverse in nutrition and housing and increase in poverty (in particularly child poverty) in the UK, for some, vaccination is the only safeguard they have.

I am another who wouldn't agree with a medical procedure being a legal obligation. Where would it stop if that was acceptable. Compulsory sterilization for people with some medical conditions? Back to the days when your doctor or husband could hospitalize you without your consent. These are extreme and far fetched I know but compulsory vaccinations make me uncomfortable.

Yes, I have vaccinated both my children.

As long as there is any kind of risk - there must be a choice.

I really can't understand how any intelligent person would argue for forced medical procedures on mentally able adults, or the children they are responsible for.

I haven't read the full thread but yabu. Children are not a property of the government, over my dead body would anybody be sticking a needle in my child without my permission. It is entirely up to the parent about what they decide is best for their child. End of.

I'm very pro-medical-orthodoxy on vax, got my own kids all the jabs, etc.

But I don't think requiring people to vaccinate their children (or face withdrawal of schooling etc) is a good thing, mainly because it's a really poor cultural fit for the UK. Forcing people to undergo medical procedures with a very very small (but still non-zero) risk of harm just goes against the grain for me - and for many others, going by the responses on this thread. It may work in other countries but I cannot see it ever working here - I think it would actually fire people up and make things worse.

It's easy for pro-vaxxers to find anti-vax people incomprehensible. But characterising them as selfish herd immunity riders, or lazy, or stupid, doesn't help. It's not going to make them more likely to listen to you, is it?

I don't think anti-vaxxers are any worse (or better) morally than the pro-vaxxers. The problem is getting any meaningful engagement since the stakes (child health) are so high - everything gets heated so quickly.

If you do fancy engaging with some anti-vaxxers, there is a really good paper on UK anti-vax which I recommend if you want a better understanding of (some of) what is really going on: "'Trusting blindly can be the biggest risk of all': organised resistance to childhood vaccination in the UK.", by Pru Hobson-West. Free on the internet. Also I recommend Andrew Wakefield's book "Callous Disregard", you can get it second-hand from Amazon if you don't want to pay him any royalties

Oh well back to work now I guess

I am pro vax and really think some of the anti vax sentiment is stupid in the extreme. Provided there are no medical reasons not to, children should be vaccinated.

However, making it the law is something entirely different. I would be more inclined to pump money and energy into educating the anti-vax parents about the dangers of not vaccinating.

I also don't buy the whole abdication of societal responsibility in favour of looking after just your child. Sometimes you need to look at the bigger picture.

Yes, debatediscuss, I wonder how many posters on this thread know their immunity status are completely up to date with all boosters for all scheduled vaccinations if required

Here are my vaccination dates - anything look out of date?

Smallpox and polio 1969
BCG 1983
MMRV and DTP 2007 (I also had all measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox as a child)
DTP 2014
Flu vaccine annually

Also I recommend Andrew Wakefield's book "Callous Disregard"

Are you kidding? Andrew Wakefield is a discredited charlatan.

Hadley, I mean this in a most genuine way. Is that a rhetorical question or can you not think of reasons other than "batshit nonsense" why a parent would choose not to vaccinate their child or, for that matter, why an adult would opt not to request vaccination upon themselves?

No. I can't really. Hence why I asked the question.

I suppose I can conceive of someone being scared of potential side effects or needle phobia or something. But contrasted against the risk of my child catching measles or polio, I can't really understand what concerns (other than legit known medical ones) would outweigh that risk.

"At the very least though, people who refuse to have their children vaccinated should be prevented from accessing state education!"

I thought the idea was to implement some form of deterrent? I'm failing to see the loss here.

nice side swipe at teachers

Lol what!! wakfield was struck off.

If you want a book to read - then get Bad Science by Ben Goldacre who will give you some real insight into where the real problems in pharmaceuticals are.

It's not a "side swipe at teachers". Are there not teachers in the independent sector? It's a personal observation on state education.