To suggest immunisations should be a legal requirement?

[rednailsredheart]

Look at it like this:

Wearing seatbelts it purely a safety issue. It's also a legal requirement in the UK to protect car passengers.

So why is immunisation not a legal requirement?

Likewise, drinking and driving is a criminal offence, due to the danger to the passengers and other drivers/people around you.

But deliberately choosing to let your child become a carrier of a totally preventable disease, infecting people around them (including those too young for immunisations), is totally fine? If someone doesn't vaccinate their child, then the child subsequently becomes gravely ill, why aren't the parents charged with neglect?

Makes me think of this article

ONION

[StarlingMurmuration]

Oh well, Hakluyt. Darwinian natural selection at its best. At least people who refuse tetanus vacs aren't relying on herd immunity, or reducing it.

[seeminglyso]

bumbleymummy
''Seemingly, you're the one trying to compare developed countries to developing ones. Not quite a fair comparison! If you contract those diseases in a developed country, you are much more likely to survive.''

No I said places were the diseases were prevalent - you were the one who started with the nonsense old chestnut about clean water etc. I reminded you that these diseases occur in developed nations with good sanitation. So now you have moved the argument (realising it was wrong) to 'survival'. Yeah because surviving but ending up with a disability is so wonderful isn't it? You want a strained NHS to have to deal with all of these diseases again do you?

Wake up and stop fooling yourself, get out of this silly antivax bubble you are in on facebook that feeds your non evidenced based beliefs and stop free loading from a responsible society and putting others at risk.

[Hakluyt]

Because, pandasrock, tetanus is rare, but it is devastating. You are not likely to die these days because of antibiotics, but you can be on a ventilator and ill for 4 months. Anyone who would risk that for a child......well, words rather fail me...........

[Hakluyt]

"Hakluyt, I think part of the problem may be that the figures for deaths from those diseases are quite likely to be accurate whereas reported adverse events are not."

Why do you think that?

And, with apologies to anyone affected on this thread, are you saying that if a parent says their childis vaccine damaged we just have to accept it without question? How do parents "know"?

[bumbleymummy]

Are they 'prevalent' in those developed nations seemingly? Sounds a bit like backtracking to me.

Where have I said I don't vaccinate? I don't get any of my information from FB either thanks.

Hakluyt- I'm Trying to find the paper I read but I think cases of tetanus were split 3:2 on unvaccinated vs vaccinated.

Do you accept that there is under reporting of ADRs? Why do you think vaccines would be any different?

[PandasRock]

Hakluyt, so,you think I should have gone against medical advice then?

I went to the doctors. I asked for treatment. The recommendation was wound care and vigilance. I didn't direct the nurse that way. I presented with a wound, and she came up with the solution, which didn't involve a tetanus jab.

What on earth is so cavalier about that? And why would my course of action differ if it was my child I was consulting about, rather than myself (given same circumstances of type of wound etc)?

Clearly, the nurse didn't think there was a high chance of tetanus. Otherwise she would have suggested a different course of action.

Why am I supposed to have argued strongly against medical advice which didn't involve vaccination, when I am not supposed to argue against medical advice which does involve vaccination? I trusted what the nurse was saying. That trust would. It have been any less if it was my child who had been bitten by the dog, so why would I go against her advice in that situation? It doesn't make sense.

[Hakluyt]

Hang on, I thougth you said you decided against a tetanus jab. If a medical professional said you didn't need one, then presumably you didn't. Why are we even discussing this?

[Hakluyt]

Most people don't report ADRs thqt are minor and in like with expected side effects. Where is the evidence that there is under reporting of severe vaccine reactions?

And I repeat. If a parent says their child is vaccine damaged do we have to accept that without question? How do the parents know?

[PandasRock]

Whee did I say I decided against a tetanus shot?

I have consistently said I sought medical advice and it was suggested (and agreed) that wound care and vigilance was the way forward.

Apparently it is then odd that I would do the same for my child.

You're not the only baffled one.

[anotherdayanothersquabble]

Tetanus: In the US the incident rate is 0.16 per 1,000,000 with the highest risk in people over 60, older adults with diabetes and injection drug users.

Tetanus is an anaerobic bacteria which cannot survive in the presence of oxygen, so a clean wound or one that bleeds renders it low risk. H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) in the over the counter 3% dilution can be used as an antiseptic to introduce oxygen and is affective against tetanus and other anti biotic resistant bacteria including staphylococcus aureus. Fresh blood contains oxygen which will prevents the growth of tetanus, so allowing a wound to bleed freely will have the effect of cleaning it and introducing oxygen.

The types of wounds that are a risk are where there is significant tissue damage, including burns (one of the reasons why it is critical to keep burn sites sterile), where there is restricted blood flow, imbedded foreign bodies and deep tissue wounds.

The DTaP vaccine offered in the case of wounds can take up to 48 hours to produce antibodies and the existence of antibodies does not guarantee that the person will not go on to develop tetanus and instead TIG Tetanus Immunoglobulin is a more effective treatment. In the case of difficult wounds, surgical debidement can also be an effective treatment.

This link is good.
Tetanus

If I had an elderly relative, one with diabetes, was in a serious burns situation, or there was a risky imbedded foreign body or a deep puncture wound that was not properly cleaned or did not bleed, then I would consider my options and assess the situation.

[Hakluyt]

"
I have consistently said I sought medical advice and it was suggested (and agreed) that wound care and vigilance was the way forward.

Apparently it is then odd that I would do the same for my child.

You're not the only baffled one."

If that was recommended then of course that's what you should do- for you or your child.nit must hqve been another poster who said she woud actively refuse a tetanus shot. Apologies.

[Hakluyt]

It was anotherdayanothersquabble who would refuse a tetanus shot.

[bumbleymummy]

Hak ,I'm not talking about minor ADRs. There is under reporting of ADRs in general.

Reasons found for under reporting:

"Medical specialty was the professional characteristic most closely associated with under-reporting in 76% of studies involving physicians. Other factors associated with under-reporting were ignorance (only severe ADRs need to be reported) in 95%; diffidence (fear of appearing ridiculous for reporting merely suspected ADRs) in 72%; lethargy (an amalgam of procrastination, lack of interest or time to find a report card, and other excuses) in 77%; indifference (the one case that an individual doctor might see could not contribute to medical knowledge) and insecurity (it is nearly impossible to determine whether or not a drug is responsible for a particular adverse reaction) in 67%; and complacency (only safe drugs are allowed on the market) in 47% of studies. "

So do you think those reasons would only exist in relation to ADRs or do you think similar attitudes may exist in relation to reporting vaccine reactions?

As for automatically believing parents, no. But immediately dismissing them (and yes, some people do this) and putting it down to coincidence because it 'couldn't possibly be the vaccine' is not the right attitude either.

[PandasRock]

A friend of mine had a flu jab, collapsed immediately and was blue lighted to hospital. No report was made.

I told him about the yellow card scheme, so he could report it himself.

He had been in the care of a medical professional from the moment he stepped into the appointment room until he was released from hospital 2 days later, yet none of the people he came into contact with even noted down that he had collapsed following a vaccination, let alone took it any further (or told him he could).

Under reporting of vaccine reactions is not just about minor rashes/temperatures. Reactions are consistently ignored, in my experience and that of several friends, regardless of severity.

[anotherdayanothersquabble]

Hakluyt: I have seen more than my fair share of medical professionals and they can indeed be blinded by what they have learned and as another poster up thread said, belief is very hard to change. In my experience, vaccine reactions are very hard to have reported and from my reading of many reports, many reported reactions are all to readily dismissed as 'not possible to be linked to the vaccine'.

I have the kid who does things that 'there is no known clinical pathway that could result in that', has reactions that 'could not have happen given such a low dose', who has reactions 'that could not have happened in the way that you have described'. None of his reactions have been reported as adverse reactions because if I sit there with a medical professional and argue for them to be linked to a medicine it will erode the very fragile relationship that I have with them, and despite the fact that many of the treatments he has been prescribed have made him very ill, I still need a relationship with a doctor who will help me and my son when we need it. I never asked for a child for whom the simple solution wouldn't work and I live in fear that the next unavoidable medical intervention will kill him.

[muminhants]

Well if anyone is advocating compulsory flu vaccination for adults, I hope they were listening to Radio 4 Today this morning. They've got the wrong strain (or more accurately the strain has mutated) this year so it won't work for most people. This is a possibility every year, which is why I've never bothered having it. But I'd be annoyed if I were forced to have it and then found out it was useless anyway.

[leedy]

I don't think anyone would mandate compulsory flu vaccination, for pretty much exactly the reason you suggest - it's pretty much a new vaccine every year. The vaccines in the childhood schedule have all been in it for years.

(I've only had the flu vaccine once, when I was pregnant and asthmatic and there was a nasty strain of flu going round - having seen a woman in the maternity hospital on oxygen for pneumonia I was willing to try anything that might reduce my chance of getting something that might fuck up my lungs)

[LaVolcan]

It won't work for 97% of people.

flu vaccine

[LurkingHusband]

PandasRock

A friend of mine had a flu jab, collapsed immediately and was blue lighted to hospital. No report was made.

Well you need to separate the injection from what was injected. There's no way a reaction that rapid had anything to do with the vaccine. It was just a reaction to having an or any injection.

I've seen people collapse immediately after giving blood - it happens.

Funnily enough this thread reminded me of the fact I dodged the BCG at school - nothing sinister, I was just receiving hay fever desensitisation injections, and they weren't sure I should have the test. By the time my Doctor confirmed it was OK, they had moved on.

Anyway, going for my hayfever jab every week, the Dr. insisted I stay for 15 minutes after, in case I had a "funny turn". Nothing to do with what I was being injected with. Just "some people can faint after an injection" (I never have).

[fascicle]

Hakluyt
fascicle - you need to read the whole post.I am not disagreeing with the statements about tetanus and polio that bumbley made.

Another u-turn from you. I read your post. It's abundantly clear from your early comments about tetanus and your remark to bumbly, that you didn't know about a) it's prevalence and number of fatalities b) the preventative role of wound care in treatment. Amongst other things you said:

I am shocked that people think they can prevent and treat tetanus and would rather chance having to do that than let their child have a tetanus shot..........

You question prevention, yet tetanus spores are very commonly found in soil and infection is extremely rare.

Lurkinghusband
Do you really think the NHS would keep a patient in hospital for two days after 'a funny turn' following a vaccination, which you liken to somebody fainting after giving blood?

You said:
There's no way a reaction that rapid had anything to do with the vaccine.

That's not true. Something like anaphylaxis can be immediate.

[anotherdayanothersquabble]

I have had medical professionals refuse to investigate bowel issues in my son. I had it investigated privately and my son grew before my eyes in the weeks after treatment. Failure to investigate his illness is unforgivable.

Antivax: I believe you.

[LaVolcan]

Antivax - I believe you too. I especially agree with your last paragraph.

I would suspect that if your child had caught measles and it caused the same regression, that the 'vax at all costs' camp would have used this as proof of how dangerous measles was and not dismissed it as coincidence.

[Hakluyt]

Facicle- no uturns at all. As you will see if you read my posts. Oh, except about Pandasrock when I mistook her for another poster entirely. However, I don't feel I can contribute to this thread any more because it would now mean calling into question specific individuals sincerely held beliefs about their own children and I do not think this is the place to do that. So I won't be posting any more.