Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To suggest immunisations should be a legal requirement?

595 replies

rednailsredheart · 29/01/2015 10:44

Look at it like this:

Wearing seatbelts it purely a safety issue. It's also a legal requirement in the UK to protect car passengers.

So why is immunisation not a legal requirement?

Likewise, drinking and driving is a criminal offence, due to the danger to the passengers and other drivers/people around you.

But deliberately choosing to let your child become a carrier of a totally preventable disease, infecting people around them (including those too young for immunisations), is totally fine? If someone doesn't vaccinate their child, then the child subsequently becomes gravely ill, why aren't the parents charged with neglect?

Makes me think of this article

ONION

OP posts:
anotherdayanothersquabble · 04/02/2015 18:48

Take a Chill Pill which cheered me up.

I think I am fairly representative of those who have chosen not to vaccinate at this time. I am educated, I have read more package inserts, scientific papers, books on both sides of the subject than the average parent. I know how pharma works and there is no way on this earth my university me would recognize the Mummy me. But I gave birth to the conspiracy kid and in the intervening 10 years, I have learned more than I ever did in my university and post university qualifications. I don't think I know it all but I do question everything, background, qualifications, open mindedness, funding, lobbying, I questions the questions that are asked and the ones that are not.

I want to live in a world where things make sense and that when the WHO says improved nutrition would save more lives than vaccination, the Global Alliance for Improved Nutrition gets 400 times more funding than the Global Alliance for Vaccination not the other way round.

Measles killed a very small number of people every year before the vaccine was introduced, there are many many things that cause more deaths per thousand every year now, asthma and cancer being ones close to my heart today, let's focus on these rather than witch hunting easy targets and creating hate.

minifingers · 04/02/2015 18:55

Anotherdays - you are misreading the Analytical Armadillo's post!

She used the formula feeding analogy by way of criticising current calls to make non-vaccination punishable by law. She is pointing out that it's inhumane to try to force parents to adopt practices considered medically optimal.

I agree with her. I am strongly in favour of both vaccinating and breastfeeding but don't support criminalising non-vaccination or not-breastfeeding.

DuelingFanjo · 04/02/2015 19:01

My son has had his first vaccinations but not the three year old boosters (he is four) still not sure if we will take him tbh.

Stratter5 · 04/02/2015 19:11

It's an extremely emotive subject, and you are going to find strong feelings on both sides. Those who have good reason to not want to vaccinate - allergies, etc; and those who have been affected by diseases we can vaccinate against.

I've been directly affected, I am partially deaf because I caught mumps as an adult, and I also lost a childhood friend to measles. I would, personally, love to see everyone who can be vaccinated take it up, but I don't think you can make it legal. I can't see even making vaccination a prerequisite for a school place viable.

CalicoBlue · 04/02/2015 19:13

butterflysinmytummy I opted out of the polio vaccine for DD, as well as all the others. She has had no vaccines.

This was 13 years ago, I made the decision based on research and that DS had a bad reaction to vaccines. He had the baby jabs then no more.

ProudAS · 04/02/2015 20:04

Friends of ours were advised not to vaccinate DCs after relative developed epilepsy following jabs - don't know whether the link was proven.

I could imagine someone hearing that story and deciding that vaccination was a risk they didn't wish to take. Isn't their opinion just as valid as the next person's?? What if vaccination was forced on their DC and they were damaged by it???

I am in favour of vaccination BTW but also in favour if choice.

LongDistanceLove · 04/02/2015 20:45

Whats it going to take? Seriously what will it take? The resurgence of once preventable deadly or at least life changing diseases?

bumbleymummy · 04/02/2015 21:00

Most of the diseases aren't deadly anymore though. Fatalities were falling dramatically even before the introduction of vaccines.

seeminglyso · 04/02/2015 21:10

I can see where you are coming from. The anti vax movement are totally immune to science and research and full of conspiracy theories about big phama. Vaccinations are the perhaps the greatest life saver in our time and has elevated the suffering of millions who would have ended up with disabilities due to disease. Thing is anti vaxxers don't 'believe in' herd immunity...because it suits them not to. These same people would be devastated with what you suggest, talking about freedom of choice etc but then ask them about banning smoking in outdoor spaces and they are all over it saying how great it is...you know why because they are a bunch of hypocrites ''freedom'' when they put other children with cancer etc at risk but are prepared to support draconian laws that trample on freedom so they don't have to walk past a smoker..bunch of C**nts if you ask me :)

CalicoBlue · 04/02/2015 21:30

seeminglyso where has anyone on here, pro or non vaccine has said anything about banning people smoking in public? What makes you think that all non vaccinators are non smokers? I do not really see the connection.

When someone makes the choice not to vaccinate their child they do it for a variety of reasons. They also take steps to make sure that their children have strong immune systems, breastfeeding, fresh organic diet etc. If our children do become unwell, we keep them away from other children, the same as anyone else does. Our children do not become carriers of diseases. I doubt that non vaccinated children are a direct threat to any child with cancer.

seeminglyso · 04/02/2015 21:36

Calico - they are a threat to children with compromised immune systems who cannot have vaccinations that includes children with cancer.

I am an extended breast feeder and attachment parent and I inhabit a world on facebook of other ladies feeding pre-schoolers - many of them are anti vax - I have seen many posting about freedom of choice but only when it suits them. They are happy to risk the health of others with their illogical stance but I have seen many quite happy to deny such freedoms to other people's life style choices because it differs from their own. They hypocrisy gets to me. I am a non smoker too by the way.

CalicoBlue · 04/02/2015 21:43

It is not unvaccinated kids that carry diseases, it is the child vaccinated or unvaccinated who has the disease that can pass it on. A child or adult can only catch a disease from someone who has the disease. A unvaccinated child does not carry the disease.

My children are unvaccinated, they are teenagers, no one ever asks about their vaccine status. They do not go round infecting people with diseases.

saintlyjimjams · 04/02/2015 21:43

I think clean water, sewage systems, enough - and healthy - food & antibiotics are bigger 'life savers' to be honest (that doesn't make me a quack - it just means I understand factors affecting mortality rates).

seeminglyso · 04/02/2015 21:45

Right so all the measles outbreaks in pockets with high numbers of unvaccinated children? How does that work?

Fact is places without vaccination are more likely to carry the disease.

Many paediatricians refuse to have non vax kids in their surgery in the states because they pose such a threat to immune compromised children.

Toomanyexams · 04/02/2015 22:06

According to the World Health Organisation only clean drinking water bears vaccines for reducing the burden of infectious diseases.

www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/2/07-040089/en/

CalicoBlue · 04/02/2015 22:09

I am not a immunologist, but I do know that my unvaccinated kids to not go round infecting others with diseases they are not immunised against. Vaccination does not confer 100% immunity. In fact with some diseases where the vaccine is live, like polio, recent cases have come from vaccinated kids/adults.

Glad I don't live a country with hysterical doctors. Mine don't give a shit if mine are vaccinated or not.

seeminglyso · 04/02/2015 22:31

I’m not religious or spiritual, I don’t believe in psychics or conspiracy theories, but a handful of superstitions have wormed their way into my day to day life. I don’t use petroleum-based lip balm, because once in the mid-90s, Oprah said you could get addicted to it, and who am I to naysay Oprah? I subconsciously avoid standing in front of the microwave when it’s on, because of “rays” (my high school teacher had a sign taped to hers that read, “Stand here if you ENJOY CANCER”). I made a valiant effort to abandon antiperspirant because of the “unknown dangers” of aluminium absorption, but that didn’t last long (you’re welcome). I buy organic fruits and vegetables and milk and meat, even though I can’t quantify, exactly, how much of that designation benefits my health and how much is just marketing. I do it because I feel like it’s a more natural way to be and, for some reason, that feels right. I understand that impulse – to strive for the natural, whatever that means – and the only adverse effect is on my wallet. (Also, keep those hormones and antibiotic-resistant bacteria a minimum 10 miles away from my mouth.)

So, generally, I think it’s stellar for people to hold on to the routines, the rituals, the hunches – even the magic spells – that help life make sense, that might fend off mortality for an extra day, a month, a year. Objectively, I don’t believe that rays or armpit aluminium or a non-organic orange is going to be the end of me – or, at least, not any sooner than stress or car travel or choking on a peach pit or falling down the stairs will be – but those little rules make me feel safer. And, most importantly, unlike the potential repercussions of the current pro-“natural” anti-vaccination movement, none of my armchair opinions about lip balm has ever caused a person with Aids to pointlessly die of an entirely preventable disease.

Disneyland measles outbreak leaves many anti-vaccination parents unmoved
Read more
Perhaps you have not caught up on the anti-vaccination movement currently whipping up a brand new measles epidemic for America’s young and immunocompromised. It stems from Andrew Wakefield’s now-discredited 1998 Lancet report, which suggested a link between vaccines and autism, and created a similar panic in the UK more than 10 years ago. This New York Times paragraph handily sums it up:

“Today, the waves of parents who shun vaccines include some who still believe in the link and some, like the Amish, who have religious objections to vaccines. Then there is a particular subculture of largely wealthy and well-educated families, many living in palmy enclaves around Los Angeles and San Francisco, who are trying to carve out ‘all-natural’ lives for their children.”
I believe that it is good to be sceptical of massive, opaque government agencies and the way that they exploit people’s innate fears in order to funnel profits to pharmaceutical giants (and the diet industry, and defence contractors, and banks, and oil companies, and on and on and on). However, I have never been so doggedly suspicious of the government’s canoodling with big business that it seemed worth letting an infant baby go blind, develop seizures and mental degeneration, and die of measles-induced panencephalitis.

Advertisement

I honestly can’t believe that there’s still ground to tread in this ludicrous non-debate, but apparently it needs to be repeated: anti-vaxxers, please do not give measles to my tiny, helpless future baby. Your bodily autonomy does not extend to my family. Denying science is not innovative or progressive. Even if your worries about vaccines were true, it is not better to be dead than to be autistic.

But you do, actually, have one unassailable point here: babies dying of measles is “natural”. The child mortality rate among hunter-gatherer communities is estimated at around 30 to 40%. Is that the “natural” you had in mind?

If anyone needed more evidence that opposing vaccination is an antiquated, bad idea, look no further than the fact that several US Republicans – the ultimate talent scouts for antiquated, bad ideas – have recently come down on the anti-vaxxer side. Just this week, Kentucky senator (and disingenuous, prattling fool) Rand Paul said, vaguely, that he’d heard of “many tragic cases” of kids developing “profound mental disorders” after being vaccinated. New Jersey governor Chris Christie argued that “parents need to have some measure of choice” because “not every vaccine is created equal”. Neither politician offered any specifics about which “tragic cases” and which disproportionately dangerous vaccines they were referring to, but if citations mattered, we wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place. (Great to hear you conservatives are all about bodily autonomy now, though. I assume you’re going to apply that to women’s bodies, too? … Hello? Guys?)

Andrew Wakefield: autism inc
Read more
Most importantly, vaccination is a class issue. If I stopped being able to afford to shop at the organic hippy co-op, I could just go back to scrubbing the pesticides off my own goddamn leeks, just as we did when I was a kid. But when it comes to vaccines, the stakes are so much higher. If anti-vaxx activist Jenny McCarthy’s voluntarily unvaccinated baby transmits vanity-measles to the involuntarily unvaccinated baby of an impoverished single mother, whose baby is more likely to receive adequate medical care? Whose baby is more likely to die?

And that’s the whole point. Herd immunity isn’t about my individual hypothetical baby, or yours, or Jenny McCarthy’s – it’s about public health, investing in a collective. It’s a testament to the idea that we can care about human life independent of self-interest. That empathy extends beyond our own children. If that’s “unnatural”, I’ll take it.

seeminglyso · 04/02/2015 22:32

From a guardian article I read today....

Jackieharris · 04/02/2015 22:49

What about Scarlet Fever?

It used to be common, it used to kill lots of children. I imagine if a child with cancer caught it there could be serious consequences.

But there is no vaccine.
There are very few incidences.
There have been no deaths in a generation.

Hmm
DuelingFanjo · 04/02/2015 22:50

I am not 'anti-vax' but I am po choice. Telling people they have to vaccinate their children (or their pets) is not Beverly endearing.

DuelingFanjo · 04/02/2015 22:51

Pro.

anotherdayanothersquabble · 04/02/2015 22:55

Toomany infectious diseases perhaps (I couldn't access the reference to look further into it) but not mortality. It was a WHO report that stated clean water and improved nutrition as numbers 1 and 2 (sadly I didn't book mark on here, I have it at work) and UNICEF state that malnutrition is implicated in 50% of deaths of children under 5.

Hakluyt · 04/02/2015 23:05

.

To suggest immunisations should be a legal requirement?
anotherdayanothersquabble · 04/02/2015 23:08

Calico The MMR is a live vaccine, as is the nasal flu vaccine (with bird flu, swine flu plus two other recent virulent strains).

They can shed for up to 4 weeks (more likely only one or two). Plus there are cases of vaccinated people showing no symptoms transmitting diseases.

(Polio vaccine used in the UK is no longer a live one.)

Hakluyt · 04/02/2015 23:21

People don't die of scarlet fever in the developed world because it is a bacterial infection easily treated with antibiotics.