To suggest immunisations should be a legal requirement?

[rednailsredheart]

Look at it like this:

Wearing seatbelts it purely a safety issue. It's also a legal requirement in the UK to protect car passengers.

So why is immunisation not a legal requirement?

Likewise, drinking and driving is a criminal offence, due to the danger to the passengers and other drivers/people around you.

But deliberately choosing to let your child become a carrier of a totally preventable disease, infecting people around them (including those too young for immunisations), is totally fine? If someone doesn't vaccinate their child, then the child subsequently becomes gravely ill, why aren't the parents charged with neglect?

Makes me think of this article

ONION

Hakluyt
Really? No credible sources on the Internet?

If you think I'm being goady why not report me and let MNHQ decide. Can't see it myself.

I didn't say that though, did I. I said if you wanted credible sources then GOOGLE isn't the best place to search. I was thinking CINAHL, COCHRANE etc which are very definitely available on the internet.
So yeah, I reckon your little passive aggressive smiley is a touch goady. Just as if I were to then say HTH, which would also be quite goady.

Vaccinations aren't injected into the blood stream, they are injected into the muscles.

This Dr explains how too much aluminium is bad for infants with impaired kidney function - and how the typical vaccination schedule contains too much aluminium.

He also says the safe amount of aluminium for non kidney impaired babies has never been studied.

www.askdrsears.com/topics/health-concerns/vaccines/vaccine-faqs

Unfortunately I did vaccinate my children. And they all suffered vaccine damage. Their (UK) Dr is very clear it is due to aluminium and other things in the vaccinations which their body couldn't filter out due to a digestive problem they all have.

From a Cochrane review:

We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections

www.cochrane.org/CD004407/ARI_using-the-combined-vaccine-for-protection-of-children-against-measles-mumps-and-rubella

A Cochrane review and a review of 530,000 children receiving the MMR vaccine showed that the risk of febrile seizures increased only during the first two weeks after vaccination, was small (an additional one or two febrile seizures per 1,000 vaccinations), and was likely related to fever from the vaccine.
Demicheli V, Jefferson T, Rivetti A, Price D. Vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella in children. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2005;(4):CD004407.

The currently available MMR vaccines, which contain the Jeryl Lynn strain of mumps virus, are very effective, are not associated with meningitis and are the safest way of preventing measles, mumps and rubella, themselves serious and occasionally fatal diseases."
<a class="break-all" href="http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20141205150130/www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/pl-p/documents/websiteresources/con2031106.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20141205150130/www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/pl-p/documents/websiteresources/con2031106.pdf

More about the relative risks of aseptic meningitis that occurred with the now discontinued Urabe strain of vaccine:
vaccineswork.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/urabe-mmr-in-uk-1988-1992.html

The Unproven Aluminum Toxicity Contention

Thus vaccine-injected aluminum is so rapidly excreted, that it produces minimal if any elevations in serum aluminum concentrations, and only for a few days, and definitely not near any toxic range, from the total possible 500 mcg injected over a 6-month period. Thus it accumulates little more than the infant’s 6 months oral total (38,000 mcg-117,000 mcg) of daily regular dietary ingestion of aluminum via formula with a 1% absorption rate

www.healio.com/pediatrics/journals/pedann/2013-10-42-10/%7Bcc252147-8eea-4561-8d60-749c41d70a44%7D/taking-a-pass-on-alternative-immunization-schedules

What's your point?

Are you saying my DC aren't vaccine damaged?

Are you stating that the aluminium levels in vaccinations are safe?

No one knows how many children of this generation will get dementia a few years earlier than they should have due to a build up of aluminium in their brain.

A build up that started with their vaccinations.

It's not until your child dies of old age that you can conclude the vaccination you gave them was safe.

An intramuscular injection is a technique used to deliver a medication deep into the muscles. This allows the medication to be absorbed into the bloodstream quickly
www.healthline.com/health/intramuscular-injection#Overview1

The level of ignorance and misinformation is truly truly shocking

Dr Sears appears to have a book to sell ( like many anti-vaxxers he's got a financial reason for flogging his views). He has a history of being a shill too:
'Sears and several of his family members are distributors and spokespersons for Juice Plus dietary supplements, which Sears promotes on his website.[5] National Safety Associates (NSA), the company that markets Juice Plus, used testimonials from Bill Sears in advertisements promoting Juice Plus Gummies. In April 2005, the Better Business Bureau's National Advertising Division, in response to a consumer complaint, deemed that the ads misleadingly implied that the Gummies are low in sugar and are a nutritional alternative to fruits and vegetables. In response, NSA promised to modify its ads and stop claiming that the product is “the next best thing to fruits and vegetables”.'

Mind that aluminium from your tin-foil hat.

I'm not ignorant or mis-informed.

I am however incredibly sad and guilty that I damaged my DC through vaccinating them.

You're still not answering my questions.

What happens to all the aluminium that goes into your baby's muscles? Does it leave their system? How? When? Or stay there forever? How much of it makes it from the muscle to the bloodstream?

How do you know you haven't also damaged your children? That (for example) they won't develop dementia a few years early?

Bloody hell, there's a whole family of Dr Sears. Hard to tell which one is 'Dr Bob' and which one is 'Dr Bill'. This is a nice takedown, anyway:

www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/

Are you saying because he has a book to sell he must therefore be wrong?

Right....... That makes loads of sense.

I have written a book, on the topic I am an expert on. Nobody has ever said that there's something wrong with the information in it because I make money from selling it.

He's a shill, he's pushing his agenda ( which he is making a fortune from). Wakefield had a financial interest in pushing his bullshit too. They always do.

So could you explain to me what is actually wrong with the article?

Which bit of it is wrong.

All authors make money from their books. That's neither here not there.

Naive

I will paste the link again for you that answered your questions the first time round:

Thus vaccine-injected aluminum is so rapidly excreted, that it produces minimal if any elevations in serum aluminum concentrations, and only for a few days, and definitely not near any toxic range
www.healio.com/pediatrics/journals/pedann/2013-10-42-10/%7Bcc252147-8eea-4561-8d60-749c41d70a44%7D/taking-a-pass-on-alternative-immunization-schedules

Approximately 95% of an aluminum load becomes bound to transferrin and albumin intravascularly and is then eliminated renally
emedicine.medscape.com/article/165315-overview

As the saying goes, 'you're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts.'
Believe what you want, it's a free country.

Mistressmia - so aluminium is always rapidly excreted from children with digestive problems?

Random - I have to live with my vaccine damaged children every day. And every night. Those are the facts of my life.

When my DS first saw a peadetrician due to his reaction to his DTaP vaccination she was very clear that it caused his immediate reaction.

And all his subsequent DRs agree.

However other DRs kept insisting it was safe for his siblings to be vaccinated. They were wrong.

School even vaccinated my DD without my knowledge or permission.

Those are the facts of my life.

Sorry to hear your dcs have suffered as a direct result of immunizations maverick. However, even the Alzheimer's society states that there is no link between dementia and aluminum.

I live in Texas. Unless I can prove medical or religious reasons for exemption, my kids need to have all immunizations required by the state in order to attend any school. Same for our last country of residence, Singapore. Both have different requirements. Add in the fact that we are in the UK every year, where meningitis vaccinations are recommended too and my kids are like pincushions. Dh and I, and our dcs, would not have been allowed to transfer overseas if our vaccinations weren't up to date. We (including dcs) would not have been allowed residency in the USA without all vaccinations (including the latest flu shot) and immunity tests being carried out. It's probably only a matter of time before the UK too requires children to be vaccinated in order to attend school, as many "first world" countries already do.

It's my responsibility as a parent to assess risks to my children at this age and minimize those risks. Dh's aunt suffered from polio and had a miserable life. I have friends of friends who have lost a child due to meningitis. I have chosen to vaccinate.

Naive

There are sometimes adverse effects from vaccines, but the aluminium toxicity theory is not implicated as a cause as the science doesn't stand up wrt to the claims being made by Dr Sears.

Here is a summary of the main findings of Adverse Effects of Vaccines, Evidence & Causality, an extensive peer reviewed study of a number of different vaccines which looked at the relationship between vaccines and adverse effects. It found in some cases that there was a causal relationship, while in others it was coincidental.
www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/adverseeffects.pdf

DTaP vaccine side-effects are on:
www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#dtap

Moderate problems are uncommon and Serious ones very rare. I am sorry if your children have been affected adversely but would reiterate that getting diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis disease is much riskier than getting the DTaP vaccine.

In view of the uncommon nature of the more moderate and severe adverse affects, it would also be extremely improbable for all your children to have suffered such effects.

Improbable ?

Makes fuck all difference how probable it was after it happened.

Ultimately what matters is that I permanently injured my DC. And I did that because I was under a lot of pressure from the NHS to do so.

I permanently injured my DC because I wrongly trusted the NHS.

yABU. I fully vaccinate my children but the thought of the government being able to tell you that you MUST stick a needle of chemicals in your child whether you agree or not...gives me chills.

mistressmia you say that side effects are 'uncommon' yet many vaccine reactions are never reported (like mine as I said above) therefore we can never know how common or uncommon reactions are.

I also don't agree that "getting diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis disease is much riskier". The chances of contracting these diseases in the UK, even including the 2012 pertussis outbreak is extremely low. They were massively decreasing before the vaccinations programs began so cannot be fully attributed to that either. Even if a chil were to catch one we now have much more effective antibiotics to treat them than we did in the pre vaccine days. The rate of complications and deaths is much lower now that when the vaccines were rolled out. So I don't believe that risking a dc catching one of these (not that vaccines are always effective anyway) is actually a serious risk to their health, no more than frequent car travel or similar 'risky' everyday activities.

""School even vaccinated my DD without my knowledge or permission."

Did your dd give her consent? I presume she ws a teen being given the HPV vaccine?

Naive I am very sorry about your individual experience and the suffering your DCs have had to endure. However, in terms of the argument it makes all the difference how improbable the outcome was, this is the only thing we can go on when making risk decisions.

If a vaccine has a 0,01% chance of causing death/permanent harm and a disease a 10% chance of similar harm all we have to make a decision is the numbers. The children who will be harmed either by the vaccine or the disease are not identifiable in advance so all we have is an assessment of the relative risks.

Consider this analogy:
A man decides to drink a lot and drive, over the speed limit, in a busy city centre, on a busy day. He weaves on and off the pavement, goes through red lights and has no awareness of his surroundings. By some fluke he does not hit anyone or anything, let's say the chance of this happening is 0,01% which is very low but not impossible. Would you say that what he did was right because no harm was done? The unacceptable risk he took with other people's lives is what matters here, not that it did not actualise.

Equally taking a very tiny risk which does actualise does not mean you were wrong to take the risk. It was a sensible decision at the time, 'at the time' being the conditions of uncertainty that characterise risk decisions.

It's always very difficult on threads like this because people share their own very personal and painful stories. As of course they have a perfect right to to do. And it then obviously feels very intrusive and insensitive to ask probing questions, or to query the "authorities" they cite.

So the threads sort of peter out. Leaving people none the wiser really.

The thing is though Booboosto that, given your comment that we currently have no idea why some children react to vaccines and some do not, Niaves risk assessment is now different to the main population isn't it?

I have not vaccinated my last child after a series of serious adverse reactions to vaccines with my other children and close relatives.
So when I weigh up the pros and cons I, like Naive, have precedent to weigh.

It's immensely difficult .
And don't forget those of us who are wary of subsequent vaccinations after an adverse reaction were lining up to have the jabs like everyone else.

Can I say that I applaud your post in presenting an opposing view to Naive without being goady and with some reference to how very difficult life must be.

A bit more of that on this thread would be nice.