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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To suggest immunisations should be a legal requirement?

595 replies

rednailsredheart · 29/01/2015 10:44

Look at it like this:

Wearing seatbelts it purely a safety issue. It's also a legal requirement in the UK to protect car passengers.

So why is immunisation not a legal requirement?

Likewise, drinking and driving is a criminal offence, due to the danger to the passengers and other drivers/people around you.

But deliberately choosing to let your child become a carrier of a totally preventable disease, infecting people around them (including those too young for immunisations), is totally fine? If someone doesn't vaccinate their child, then the child subsequently becomes gravely ill, why aren't the parents charged with neglect?

Makes me think of this article

ONION

OP posts:
whatmess · 29/01/2015 19:00

Also, I'm not sure the statistics would make any difference if it is your child who ends up with measles.
The recent Disney outbreak has seen 5 people with measles despite being fully vaccinated. This isn't an argument not to vaccinate as you could argue that none if any would have caught measles if everyone was vaccinated.

OurMiracle1106 · 29/01/2015 19:02

Because it takes away a basic human right. As a person (or parent of a person under the age) you have a right to decide what goes into your body and what doesn't . Yes I would immunize. However I suspect if this was to be made legal other things would soon follow which would affect our Human rights.

whatmess · 29/01/2015 19:04

There are many cases of kids with other illnesses or conditions which mean they are exempt from vaccinations. Vaccinations were never a 100% for this reason, but the fact that such a large percentage were vaccinated protected those who couldn't be vaccinated. This no longer holds as the take up is much lower.
Simply providing a medical statement should allow such kids to get into school.

Booboostoo · 29/01/2015 19:04

YANBU at all and it's about time this was done.

Parents do not have autonomy over their children's bodies. They can make stupid decisions over their own bodies but not over the medical care of their children. Parents make all medical decisions on behalf of their children based on their best interests and where they fail to do so doctors and if necessary courts take over.

Children have a right to an open future. Not vaccinating for dangerous but preventable diseases for no good medical reason compromises this right to an open future. On these grounds vaccination should be compulsory.

Celticlass2 · 29/01/2015 19:13

Well said Boo

bumbleymummy · 29/01/2015 19:15

what mess - "The recent Disney outbreak has seen 5 people with measles despite being fully vaccinated. This isn't an argument not to vaccinate as you could argue that none if any would have caught measles if everyone was vaccinated." except for the ones who aren't immune despite vaccination perhaps?

what mess - yes, some conditions contraindicate vaccination. What about children whose older siblings who have reacted badly? Are they exempt or do the parents have to risk that child having an adverse event as well in order to get the certificate?

Booboo - How do you detect the 'good' medical reasons not to vaccinate?

HerRoyalNotness · 29/01/2015 19:19

bumbley a Dr's letter I imagine

Here in Texas, the have requirements for vaccine before being registered for school. you can object, but then this would apply:

What if there is a vaccine-preventable diseasesuch as measles
outbreak at a school?
A. Each parent or guardian who signs a vaccine exemption affidavit form also is acknowledging they understand that their child may be excluded from school attendance in times of emergency or epidemic declared by the Texas Commissioner of Health.

There is a school nurse who keeps on eye on the vaccine schedules who will send a letter home when your DC is due the next booster. If you DC doesn't get it in a timely manner, ie within 30 days, they're excluded.

Because of all the rules, they're pretty much forcing people to get the DC vaccinated. There are about 40 vaccines a US child has by age 2

There are now rumblings about vaccine overload, too many in too short a time

vaccine immune overload

We came in from Canada and had a lot to catch up on, but I was glad my 2 were older and had them more spaced out rather.

whatmess · 29/01/2015 19:21

The fact is we didn't have outbreaks when the uptake was much higher despite some kids being exempt. What we are seeing now is definitely a direct link to people choosing not to vaccinate for their own non-medical reasons.

whatmess · 29/01/2015 19:27

We moved from the UK to a Maryland recently. My kids were vaccinated but had to have a few more before they were allowed to start school here. The forms allowed you to provide medical certificates stating why you would be exempt. All very straightforward.

bumbleymummy · 29/01/2015 19:29

whatmess - there have always been outbreaks. Have a look at the figures on the Public Health website.

HerRoyal - that would be fine if the doctor actually had a way to test children to see if they react badly.

Out of curiosity - for the people advocating that vaccination should be mandatory. Did you get the swine flu vaccine? Do you get the flu vaccine every year?

whatmess · 29/01/2015 19:43

In 1998, the year Wakefield published his non discredited report there were 100 confirmed cases of measles in the USA. In 2014, there were 644.
Yes there have always been outbreaks but not like this.

whatmess · 29/01/2015 19:44

now discredited.

Sheesh cant believe I inadvertently said something in support of the guy :)

Booboostoo · 29/01/2015 19:46

bumbley medical science is your friend in this one. We have managed to determine what is required by the duty of care owed by medics to patients, what constitutes negligence and how to determine what is in the best interests of incompetent patients for quite a long time now. Determining what counts as a valid medical exception would be done the same way, based on the consensus of current medical opinion.

bumbleymummy · 29/01/2015 19:49

I was asking specifically about tests Boo. It's all very well to say, "well because it's safe for the majority we're going to say it's safe for you too" which is fine unless you are actually going to react badly to it. How do you detect those people?

Did you get the swine flu vaccine? Do you get the annual flu vaccine? Just curious.

bumbleymummy · 29/01/2015 19:59

what mess - 644 in the entire population of the US is hardly huge. There tend to be peaks every so often. Also, when there are publicised outbreaks, more cases can be identified because people are more aware of it.

wobblyweebles · 29/01/2015 20:02

As someone with one daughter who is very allergic and another daughter who had a vaccine reaction that required antibiotics to recover, I would still (and do) vaccinate them.

I've had measles - it was far worse than any vaccine reactions I've seen and I'm not inflicting that on them.

MistressMia · 29/01/2015 20:02

I Don’t Vaccinate My Child Because It’s My Right To Decide What Eliminated Diseases Come Roaring Back Grin Grin

www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-vaccinate-my-child-because-its-my-right-to,37839/

As a mother, I put my parenting decisions above all else. Nobody knows my son better than me, and the choices I make about how to care for him are no one’s business but my own. So, when other people tell me how they think I should be raising my child, I simply can’t tolerate it. Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I fully stand behind my choices as a mom, including my choice not to vaccinate my son, because it is my fundamental right as a parent to decide which eradicated diseases come roaring back.

The decision to cause a full-blown, multi-state pandemic of a virus that was effectively eliminated from the national population generations ago is my choice alone, and regardless of your personal convictions, that right should never be taken away from a child’s parent. Never.

Say what you will about me, but I’ve read the information out there and weighed every option, so I am confident in my choice to revive a debilitating illness that was long ago declared dead and let it spread like wildfire from school to school, town to town, and state to state, until it reaches every corner of the country. Leaving such a momentous decision to someone you haven’t even met and who doesn’t care about your child personally—now that’s absurd! Maybe I choose to bring back the mumps. Or maybe it’s diphtheria. Or maybe it’s some other potentially fatal disease that can easily pass among those too young or too medically unfit to be vaccinated themselves. But whichever highly communicable and formerly wiped-out disease that I opt to resurrect with a vengeance, it is a highly personal decision that only I and my family have the liberty to make.

The bottom line is that I’m this child’s mother, and I know what’s best. End of story. Politicians, pharmaceutical companies—they don’t know the specific circumstances that made me decide to breathe new life into a viral infection that scientists and the nation at large celebrated stamping out roughly a century ago. It seems like all they care about is following unexamined old rules, injecting chemicals into our kids, preventing ghastly illnesses that used to ravage millions and have since been erased from storming back and wreaking mass havoc on a national scale, and making a buck. Should we really be listening to them and not our own hearts?

I am by no means telling mothers and fathers out there what to do; I’m simply standing up for every parent’s right to make his or her own decision. You may choose to follow the government-recommended immunization schedule for your child, and that’s your decision as a parent. And I might choose to unleash rubella on thousands upon thousands of helpless people, and that’s my decision as a parent.

It’s simple: You don’t tell me how to raise my kids to avoid reviving a horrific illness that hasn’t been seen on our shores since our grandparents were children, and I won’t tell you how to raise yours.

Look, I’ve done the research on these issues, I’ve read the statistics, and I’ve carefully considered the costs and benefits, and there’s simply no question in my mind that inciting a nationwide health emergency by unleashing a disease that can kill 20 percent or more of its victims is the right one for my child.

People need to respect that and move on.

Grin Grin

wobblyweebles · 29/01/2015 20:02

644 in the entire population of the US is hardly huge

It really isn't.

And that would be because almost everywhere, vaccination is mandatory.

Thank goodness.

bumbleymummy · 29/01/2015 20:10

wobbly - do you think all vaccination should be mandatory? I find t very strange that people who constantly proclaim to live in a 'free country' have been …um…"convinced" that the government forcing these things upon you is A Good Thing. Personally, I'd rather live in a country where we do genuinely have free choice but each to their own!

arkestra · 29/01/2015 20:15

The reason I'm recommending Wakefield's book isn't because I think he's right. I don't think he's right.

I'm recommending other pro-vaxxers (like me) read the book so they get more familiar with the mindset and arguments of the anti-vaxxers.

In my experience people who only read stuff they agree with make great polemicists from the point of view of people who already agree with them, and are pretty crap at converting anyone else.

Jackieharris · 29/01/2015 20:15

I have to laugh at all the people who get so outraged at all these unvaccinated DCs running about endangering their DCs when they themselves are most likely 'unvaccinated'.

Most vaccines last 10 years or less therefore by the age of 30 most adults can catch and pass on most of the diseases that routine vaccines are given for.

bumbleymummy · 29/01/2015 20:18

arkestra - I agree with you. I can't remember who it is that recommends regularly reading books that go completely against your own opinions/beliefs. It's uncomfortable but it makes you think differently and (sometimes) helps you to understand where people are coming from - even if you don't agree with them.

wobblyweebles · 29/01/2015 20:18

I like living in a country where babies and people with compromised immune systems don't risk catching preventable diseases bumbley. Pretty simple really.

whatmess · 29/01/2015 20:18

MistressMia Grin Grin

bumbleymummy · 29/01/2015 20:19

Jackie - or the people who don't know if their own child is actually immune to the disease even if they have been vaccinated.

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