To hate the idea of the new smoking bribe?

[CharleyFarleyy]

What do people who dont smoke anyway get? seems like they are going to miss out un-fairly.

Also if quitting for your and your babys health isnt incentive enough will shopping vouchers help anyway?

"I think we either need to be a society of givers or takers, or a society of complete equality."

I totally agree with this, and actually, most of what Hamiltoes has said.

But the 100k earner has payed their tax, played for their box, why shouldn't they get it?

You pay your tax you get a box, you don't pay tax you still get a box because you deserve one, it's fair and are lucky enough people have payed in enough to get you one. We all deserve a fucking box! . haha

Society should be fair, yes we all get free education from 5, but many of us must return to work before our children reach 5, the nursery fee I pay is the same as someone earning 100k who may well have a lot more disposable income than me, so they pay for nursery easily, where ad I budget for nursery. If we all got nursery for free we would all be better off.

Basically what I'm saying is, society isn't fair right now, yes some should deservedly "take" more due to circumstance, but the "givers" should get the same too in return for giving e.g free childcare.

anyway the threads gone off topic, give them the vouchers, if it saves a baby it's worth it in the long run, and that's the important thing a babies life.

To be brutally honest, I reckon that if you can't stop smoking when you are pregnant, you are very unlikely to stop smoking until you are physically unable to do so ... for example, you're at death's door.

And even then, I am not so sure people can stop. I see people outside our local hospital smoking with canisters of oxygen by their side. They do this swapsy thing between their mask and the fag. [shocked]

I personally cannot figure out how women manage to smoke during pregnancy anyway. How do they override the gut-wrenching nausea? I am no anti-smoking type at all and was a smoker myself for twenty-four years, but even I could not cope with the faintest whiff of tobacco when I was pregnant. I couldn't even cope with the smell of a packet of unlit fags.

Any road, what I am saying is that I suspect you will get smoking mums-to-be who do the scheme, but don't really stop smoking, yet pretend they have in order to scoop the vouchers.

I reckon this because, were I one of those mums, that is what I would do.

I just think it is really sad that this is needed. The compelling evidance about the effect you will have on your baby should be enough reason.

You don't pay tax to get things back, you pay tax to make society better for everyone.

The 100k earner has earned 100k!! They can afford to buy things that the people who need benefits can't. How do people not get this?

They may have earned 100k but they certainly haven't brought that home.

bumble I don't understand what you're implying?

Yes and surely helping all new mothers or working families is better for society. You can't just say to people oh your a high earner so cough up the higher tax rate and go fuck yourself I'm nowhere near a higher tax rate code and even I think it's a bit unfair on them.

Funny enough Finland has one of the lowest rate of SIDS because most if not all babies begin their life's sleeping in the box given to the mother's by the government, The box comes with a mattress and it can be made in to babies first bed, pretty sure lower infant death rates betters society too.

Ginger buy yourself a bloody box.

I'm starting to think you are basing your entire opinion of social injustice on finlands box baby gift system

If I want a box I will buy one, the same goes for anything.

You mentioned the thread went of topic so I was going to leave alone but since you've ressurected the issue- you do realise you're analogy of "you earn alot & pay taxes- you get a box, you don't pay taxes- you get a box" is so fundementally and mathematically flawed that my mind is just boggling thinking about it?!

(I'm just going to assume that you don't want a whole rake of people at the bottom of the pile starving, desolate, and homeless.) -

If the government is having to buy twice as many boxes to give them to the people at the top, TAXES will have to be raised to pay for this

Just like if the government is paying childcare for every single child in the country regardless of need, taxes will have to be raised to pay for this

So essentially what you support is an almost totalitarian state where 99% of your income is taken away in taxes and in return you get housing benefit, childcare, food stamps, health care, education, fire and police services and a baby box.

Well thats fine, but I much prefer the current system where I actually get to spend the money I earn on what I want to spend it on (and yes, that includes childcare as I wanted to have children and I enjoy working). The gov taking a bit off the top has literally never been a problem for me, and I don't even earn that much in the scheme of things!

And you do realise Finland pay much higher taxes to pay for these perks don't you? Goes back to my original question, would you rather "fair" was givers or takers, or would you rather "fair" was giving up all your wealth in return for an equal handout?

I think some people on this thread need to pause and think about the effects of their words on pg smokers who will probably be reading this thread. It's a group that MN on the whole fails to support but they are here. They desperately need support but they find it very difficult to ask because of the general nasty tone of antismoking posts. When you say things like they should be fined or have their DC taken into care or call them selfish cunts it doesn't actually help them quit you know. It just makes them feel even more shit than they already do. So well done.

If you can't imagine how much stress £400 could remove from someone's life then you're very lucky. That could mean eating adequately during pregnancy or securing somewhere to live or being able to buy the essentials for the baby or escaping an abusive relationship. Stopping smoking is tough, even when you have the best reason in the world. Stopping smoking when you are in very difficult circumstances, quite possibly feel ambivalent about your pregnancy, and the whole world is telling you you're a piece of shit is a herculean task.

I don't think smokers are bad people (im technically one) I don't think pregnant smokers are bad people. The latter is selfish though no matter how much you want to either dress it up or tone it down so as not to offend people.

no hamiltoes it was just an example to use that everyone who payed in should get something back, regardless of economic status. That there are many like myself who pay in and have done for years for very little return. That I am now pretty used to being fucked over by the government and that it had nothing to do with those in receipt of benefits or the grass being greener as you put it, that it would simply just be nice for everyone to get one small thing that was fair I.e akin to Finland's box.

but I digress, just give them the vouchers and be done with it. If it saves a life it saves a life and I think some shopping vouchers are worth a new born life.

And the same goes for those who'd like a blanket ban on smoking because they occasionally have to walk through secondhand smoke on the street.

Smokers pay way more into the pot over the course of their smoking lives than they probably will ever manage to take out. Can you imagine the loss of all those billions of pounds, whilst having an even more ageing population than we already have to pay for? You can't have your cake and eat it. If a smoker choses to smoke, pays their taxes, is happy with their choices and dies quietly before they start costing the state ££££ in bus passes, winter fuel, pension, health and social care bills... Then who are we to complain?

At least they pay a tax for their sins, unlike the obese.

ginger one small thing that everyone gets that was fair?

Oh yeah, you mean the police service, the fire service, hospitals, schools.

I think I would rather have the above than some small gesture from the gov to keep new mothers happy

We will agree to disagree it's simpler.

If you can give up at the thought of some free money/vouchers but not for the well being of your baby being a big enough incentive then wow. Just wow. Poor baby.

The scheme will be effective and the expenditure justifiable only if there is an infallible method of confirming that the participants have not smoked. I'm about whether it will be properly administered.

Initially, I thought it sounded ridiculous, but if it is a foolproof way of ensuring some mothers stop smoking, then it's worth a try, for the benefit of the babies and the public purse. I can't help thinking, though, that mothers who need to be bribed not to smoke whilst pregnant, are likely to relapse once the incentive is removed.

"Smokers pay way more into the pot over the course of their smoking lives than they probably will ever manage to take out."

Sure, I've heard that all the smoking related illnesses - heart disease, cancer, emphysema etc cost nothing to treat.

I'm a reasonable, have held down a decent full time job since school type person.

I smoke. Have done since 17 years of age.

I fell pregnant unexpectedly (married but weren't actively trying). I stopped smoking. Finding things difficult a few weeks later I popped into my chemist for some nicotine patches ' can I have a clearblue test with digital indicator please' ( I was keen to find out if I'd moved from 1-2 to 3+). The pharmacist popped her head over the counter and said 'are you giving up for baby? We can help'

I was offered weekly sessions at the pharmacy to chat about how things were going. The incentive at that time was that the nicotine patches would be given on prescription if I could give a clear carbon monoxide sample every week. I signed up. Not because I needed the free patches (I was saving tones not smoking) but because getting tested every week was a real incentive to stay clean. I needed that. It really stopped me when i was tempted.

If others now get the same but with vouchers added on then good. I would like to think that I would not have accepted the vouchers as I didn't need financial help, but hey maybe I would've spunked it on a nicer pram. The thing is to people where money is an issue it will be an ever better incentive and will help them push through the weeks of no smoking and the weekly tests.

PS I've never smoked in the house or car. It's stinks :-)

I read the first few & final page so I don't know if it has been mentioned but...it's children overwhelmingly who start smoking. Let's not penalise unborn children for bad decisions their parents made in their childhoods.

The mothers may relapse once the baby born, yes. And obviously it's better for both the mother and child if the mother manages to quit smoking permanently.

But if they manage to stop smoking while pregnant, there's going to be a real health benefit to their baby, even if they start smoking again the day after the baby's born. Their baby is going to be less likely to be a low birth weight, less likely to be premature, less likely to be stillborn. So even if they relapse after the baby's born, it's still good for the baby.

Good for the baby that they stopped smoking for the duration of the pregnancy, that is.

Thank you PlentyofPubeGardens. I was a pregnant smoker. I cut down to 2 a day, stopped, but it was in halts and fits and took me until 25 weeks in the end. I have bipolar disorder and had been experiencing severe anxiety and am under perinatal mental health services. My pregnancy didn't feel real to me.

The stuff posted in this thread wouldn't help me quit. I DID ask for help from my midwife, I asked twice to be referred to the stop smoking midwife and it never happened. The first referral Was lost and the second she rang once and never contacted me again.

I quit with no help. So stop assuming pregnant smokers are just selfish bitches (rapists, REALLY?!) chugging 20 fags a day. Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances on earth and pregnancy is one of the most stressful times in life. It took me a few weeks to even tell my midwife I was struggling to quit because I was so frightened she'd say the things about me women are saying here.

Exactly, pregnant women are scared to even admit they smoke, even if they have cut down to 1 or 2 a day. And nobody can help them stop smoking if they don't know they smoke. I suppose at least this way, it's as much of an incentive to come forward and admit it, as well as to stop. It's really not as simple as saying mothers are selfish if they can't quit for their baby.

Going to the other matter, I really dislike the phrase "taxpayers money". It's very emotive, and that's why it gets used. It makes it feel like the money for some form of public service is coming directly out of your pocket. But it's only really used to make something sound negative, like it's a waste of money. But that's another issue.

Perhaps it could be argued that the smokers have already paid for their vouchers, in the extra tax they've paid through their habit. Perhaps we could call it something else instead of vouchers, like tax credits. Maybe the smokers have even paid more tax in their lifetime than others!

Hmmm I'm not sure how I feel about the vouchers as I think free patches and regular support groups where they are checked and encouraged should be enough combined with wanting to for their child.

Where do you draw the line? It's a very high percentage of babies born to pregnant diabetics who end up in SCBU. For those who develop diabetes during pregnancy they often have to do a complete diet overhaul and cut out sugar which is incredibly addictive. If they get consistently low blood sugar readings and beat the addiction do they get anything. At the diabetic clinic (I'm a pre-existing diabetic and know how to manage it so it doesn't apply to me) I remember overhearing two women discussing how hard they found it to try and keep their blood sugars down and one said she had been unable to give up coke but had cut down to a few a day and that diet coke didn't taste the same ... her pregnancy care will cost the NHS a lot more than a pregnant smoker.

People have to be trusted and encouraged to do the best they can without financial carrots, otherwise where do you stop?