To hate the idea of the new smoking bribe?

[CharleyFarleyy]

What do people who dont smoke anyway get? seems like they are going to miss out un-fairly.

Also if quitting for your and your babys health isnt incentive enough will shopping vouchers help anyway?

Jassy, should we also pay drug addicts to stop doing drugs? Or alcoholics to stop drinking? Kleptomaniacs to stop stealing? You could make a good case for any of these.

Plenty I'm not saying "If you think they would rather start smoking again just for the sake of £400 you really do have a low opinion of smokers", I've already said "not unreasonable to expect that there will be someone who does start up again post pregnancy... (I'm not saying for the sake of more vouchers)" What I AM saying is that the of those who give up, some will start again - forget subsequent pregnancies - some will start smoking again for whatever reason. The stats show that - only 15% stay off cigarettes. What I was asking was 'can women re-enter the scheme in a subsequent pregnancy if they take up smoking again - for whatever reason, nothing to do with getting the vouchers' I'm asking if the scheme is a one-off trial per woman (as its only women)? It's a fair enough question to ask!

I hadn't thought of the benefits of role model plus the other benefits of no SSH after birth. That is a very good point and I agree it would be good if the fathers could give up too especially as having someone in the house who smokes while you are trying hard to give up must be quite a struggle let alone all the SSH issues, health issues etc..

Goodbye, I'd draw a line in your analogies between legal and illegal behaviours. There is a clear difference.

I'm open to to behavioural economics strategies if there is a solid evidence base and there is a net benefit. That's what trials and pilots are for.

It's about what's good for society and for individuals, not what makes me feel good about myself.

I think anyone who smokes in pregnancy needs to take a long hard look at themself.. Anyone of childbearing age will have started smoking despite all the health warnings which have been around for decades.

I agree goodbye - where does it end?

No wonder why so many pregnant women find it acceptable to smoke by the reactions on here as it seems to be justified because it is an 'addiction'.

I wonder what else those 'parents' won't be willing to sacrifice for their child during its lifetime because it isn't convenient / doesn't make them happy to do so.

Jassy, what's legal and what's not is just some other human beings' decision - the difference is clear but not always rational.

If it's illegal tomorrow to smoke while pregnant, will you change your mind?

What about addiction to legal drugs?

OK sorry daisy I misread. It was a study, not a fully implemented scheme, so they won't have worked out those sorts of rules but yes of course she should be supported again if she relapses. What would be the benefit of refusing to offer the most effective support a second time if needed?

I realise 15% sounds very low. I think lots of people hadn't realised how dire the current success rates are.

I'm a bit bothered that the health and wellbeing of the mother doesn't seem to factor into these arguments for many. Among some really nasty hostility there are a few offering grudging support as long as it's for the good of the baby. The mother, who in all probability became addicted as a child, deserves a crack at good health as well - for her, not just for her child - or are we really just walking incubators?

Incentive schemes have been successfully trialed for drug treatment and there are probably studies showing it's successful for alcohol too if you google. Kleptomania is likely to be a more complex problem but who knows?

I'm a bit bothered that the health and wellbeing of the mother doesn't seem to factor into these arguments for many. Among some really nasty hostility there are a few offering grudging support as long as it's for the good of the baby. The mother, who in all probability became addicted as a child, deserves a crack at good health as well - for her, not just for her child - or are we really just walking incubators?

Please don't try to make this into a feminist issue with the "incubator" comment. If she doesn't care about her own well-being and that of her unborn child, why should strangers? Has she been robbed of her own free will?

No wonder why so many pregnant women find it acceptable to smoke

Except they don't, they just find it tremendously difficult to stop. I've known quite a few women who smoked while pregnant and without exception they have been already wracked with guilt and shame (often to the point they are afraid to seek help) and worried sick about the possible harm they are doing to their child.

Shaming them further is counterproductive, it just makes them feel worthless and shit and even less likely to be interested in their health at all.

Exactly goodbye.

She is choosing to smoke and choosing to get pregnant. Even if you take into count failing contraception etc which I'm sure only accounts for a small percentage.

I knew someone who smoked during her pregnancy. She also had a very high bmi so was already at risk of other problems. She told me the doctor told her not to quit as she would have big babies and this would stop that happening.

Her sister who I knew was equally disgusted and told me that it was bullshit that she had made up because she didn't want to quit but she had cut down to 10 a day!

Maybe this is where we differ then Plenty.

Not only the woman I just mentioned but I have known several to smoke in pregnant with little or no shame.

I am at no point saying it is easy but surely it's a very selfish thing to get pregnant and abject a baby to all the possible health problems knowingly!

The same woman I have seen outside the birthing unit smoking now twice after her midwife appointments - she doesn't look shamed at all! If she can't even be arsed to walk around the corner and is happy to smoke whilst all the other pregnant people arrive for their appointment then how often is she smoking at home!?!

Jassy, what's legal and what's not is just some other human beings' decision - the difference is clear but not always rational.

I don't disagree, but there are issues around consistency in what the state supports and what it doesn't. Though as Plenty points out, this is being trialled in drug treatment (and drug treatment is of course legal while illegal drug use isn't) so my position wasn't very coherent itself. So I'm happy to say I was probably wrong there.

If it's a net benefit, what's the problem, except that you think it should happen without the incentive? The fact is that it's happening without the incentive, and the incentive makes a difference. You don't need to feel warm and fuzzy about it to make it rational and beneficial.

If a woman's health is only important inasmuch as it affects her ability to reproduce then of course it's a feminist issue.

(and drug treatment is of course legal while illegal drug use isn't)

Maybe some misunderstanding? The study I linked to was of people in treatment for addiction to stimulants (meth probably). Some were also using alcohol, marijuana and opioids.

bubalou - lots of women brazen it out and pretend they don't care. With the level of abuse they get surely you can understand why?

Jassy, would you then support a measure to pay recidivist thieves 100GBP per week to stay out of city centers if this were proven to be cost effective?

Don't know, as thieving generally isn't an addiction and a health issue.

But then, we don't arrest pregnant women who are smoking - though I get the feeling some on this thread feel that would be appropriate.

Plenty

"If a woman's health is only important inasmuch as it affects her ability to reproduce then of course it's a feminist issue."

This isn't about her ability to reproduce. I don't think it's a feminist issue either.

Yes it is, it's all about cutting the numbers of miscarriages, still-births and neonatal problems due to maternal smoking. Why on earth else do you think the study targeted pregnant women?

Have to say though bumbley I've seen quite a few of your posts and you don't come across as someone who much cares about feminist issues.

I'm still reeling over people comparing pregnant women who smoke to rapists and thieves.

There's a mother I see outside the school gates at the moment, probably about 7 or 8 months gone, smoking away. Now I've never smoked, I find it repulsive, hate the smell, hate everything about it. But some of the attitudes on this thread are making me want to nip into the newsagents on the way to school, buy a packet of 20 and offer her a fag on the way past as a gesture of solidarity.

Well you're wrong there Plenty but then some MNers ideas of what feminism is are a bit extreme to say the least.

To be fair Lurcio I don't think they're saying that they are the same as rapists and thieves. They are just questioning the idea of rewarding people for something that they should do anyway. It's an interesting point - why stop with smoking in pregnant women? What else could we give financial incentives for to reduce the impact on the NHS? Losing weight? Exercising?

There are incentives with change4life at the moment.

Obesity is also linked with deprivation.

I wonder if they should try it with breastfeeding. Would a financial incentive encourage people who would otherwise not try at all? I suppose it would be a more difficult thing to prove though.

bumbley - They have tried it with breastfeeding. I'll see if i can dig out a link.

I was a bit hacked off with the breastfeeding trial, because that was in the news roundabout when DS2 was born. I planned to breastfeed him, did (and still am) breastfeed him, and I felt a bit like I'd missed out because they were doing the trial in a different part of the country to where I live.

I did also think that if they're serious about encouraging breastfeeding then making breastfeeding support more easily accessible would be a better step - I know a number of women who wanted to breastfeed but switched to formula after having trouble with the early stages of breastfeeding. I think more support could make a big difference in the numbers of women continuing breastfeeding past the first few weeks.