To have gone right off Benedict Cumberbatch

[UsedToBeAPaxmanFan]

I read today that Benedict Cumberbatch has had to apologise after using the phrase "coloured actors". Coloured? Seriously?

He did apologise and said that he knew it was wrong, but the fact that it was in his head in the first place is what's so troubling. I am older than him and have always known that "coloured" is an offensive term. Yes, I am aware that it wasn't considered so until the late 60s, but it hasn't been acceptable in his lifetime.

What was he not thinking?

Totally agree with Ankles above. I feel sorry for the bloke. He clearly didn't mean to be offensive at all. And agree that if the current 'pc' term in the States is people of colour then it is an extremely easy mistake to make. Surely what matters is people's opinions and attitudes not witch-hunting over labels. The whole area is a minefield. He has apologised.

I remember the anti-apartheid campaign in the 80s - 'coloured' was clearly an offensive way to describe people then.

cobain well quite. His original point has been completely hijacked. Just sad.

Mixed race is an entirely legit term in my family. We are. White/Asian in various mixes and quantums, to be precise (Europeans first went to Asia a long time ago, and one of the first things they did was reproduce with the locals...) Mostly we just say Eurasian, so save getting bogged down. But there are some people who we would call Eurasian who don't like it: they would prefer to specify, or just not be labelled at all. So who's right?

I think you have to proceed on the basis that you will use the term the person prefers, but that every now and again you will guess wrongly, forget, or put your foot in your mouth. My inclination is always to presume the good faith of the person who makes a mistake, and then apologises.

I can see how, under the pressure of an interview (even if you are used to it) it would be easy to scramble 'coloured' and 'person of colour'. So I haven't gone off Benedict at all.

I'm a woman of a certain age ( ), I don't want to be called a girl and hate expressions like 'Girl's night out'.
Men who would use that word I would say were a bit stupid but I wouldn't necessarily call them misogynist or sexist.
Ill informed, thoughtless perhaps in the same way some of us are ill informed and thoughtless about how people of colour want to be called, and not all of those POC want the same thing either.

I take it in the spirit it was intended - and it was intended supportively. I like BC and this doesn't 'colour' (haha!) my view of him at all. The man isn't a racist, he just used a word that gets people's hackles up.

To be honest, I'm mixed race, and I hate the avoidance of racial terminology. Example:

Person: Oh hey, you know that bloke, what's his name?

Muffin: I will need more data to arrive at an educated guess

Person: You know, tall guy. Beard. Wears trainers a lot.

Muffin: You have just described 50% of the male population of this office.

Person: Smoker, carries a green bag a lot.

Muffin: Do go on...

Person: Glasses! Quite a deep voice, works in marketing.

Muffin: Oh you mean that black guy? Which I use only because it IS his most identifying feature as compared to everything you just said, 'works in marketing' notwithstanding.

Person: DIES FROM SHAME

Took me so long to post that the thread had moved on by a whole page from 'mixed race'...

Bad mistake on his part.

But to me, the context of it really matters: he was trying to argue for greater equality, so less discrimination not more. He just did it really, really badly.

If he'd been arguing the opposite position, it would be different. It would be in that Top Gear deliberate racism category, and unacceptable.

The apology he has issued is unreserved and fulsome too.

I think we should be mindful of the fact we are looking at this from a largely British POV. The issue of race is different in the US because of their history of slavery. Basically whatever black people were referred to during the time of slavery is a massive no no. I think we should all be respectful of that.

I remember once having a work meeting with editorial of a magazine called something like 'Black Hair' or 'Black Beauty & Hair'.

I then went to the bank and needed to describe a member of staff (long, boring story) and in the long convoluted 'she had...black hair, wearing bank uniform (not very helpful), sitting at the counter...' I said 'young black woman' and got told off big time for the word 'black' as I ought to have used the word 'coloured'. This was about 15 years ago.

Chicolateteacake Whoever told you off was wrong. It's the other way 'round.

Kim, do you think queer is offensive (aware this is a slight derail but interested) ?
I do, but DS is gay and I've heard him using it, it was certainly offensive when I was younger and often heard it used in a nasty way.
By very definition it means odd or strange.

Namechangeyetagaintohide
Actually can someone explain people of colour vs coloured to me please ?

I don't know the definitive answer, but the terms feel pretty different to me.
As somebody put it earlier, 'coloured' has the connotation of not being the default. It comes across as lazy and generic and is often used negatively. 'People of colour', although also generic, seems to be acceptable usage in e.g. the US and has positive connotations. I think that 'of colour' suggests /embraces different ethnicities, whereas 'coloured' is a somewhat closed expression.

I feel sorry for BC, and think he may well have conflated the two expressions because he was in the US and trying to use appropriate terminology. I'd be surprised if he truly didn't know that 'coloured' is not acceptable.

My lord, I saw the title of this thread and knew exactly what it was about.

I think this phrase is only defensive depending on situation, terminology and personal preference. In the US it is widely accepted and Benefict was using the term to refer to the lack of job opportunities for "coloured British citizens", he wasn't slamming black people or causing hurt on purpose.

It's hard to know what's acceptable when speaking about such sensitive subjects such as race and religion. If one is using derogatory terms such as the N word to refer to black people then you obviously know that is not acceptable, but using the term 'coloured' could be seen as acceptable to some and horrible to others. I even feel more comfortable with 'coloured people', 'black' just seems so insulting and rough to describe a human being with feelings and emotions, but that is my opinion and some would find that insulting.

In my opinion YABU because it wasn't a common slang racial slur, it was used in general conversation and he's applogised profusely. So to put the actor's reputation down the tubes because of one mistake is short sighted, because really, many people could find certain terms you say offensive but if we judged and held grudges for all the stupid things everyone said the world would be going down the tubes....faster than it already is...

I agree muffin it can be cringeworthy when pepole refuse to actually just describe someone if they are black, or brown, and tie themselves in knots, as if the very fact of brown skin is a bit rude to mention.
It's not. My son will mention a particular footballer, say, and I might get him mixed up with a different footballer, and he will say " not him, he's got pinky white skin, I mean the one with brown skin". He notices skin colour, but it's just a fact, like red hair.
However, the reason terminology can be a minefield is that there is a history to it all. If colonialism had never happened, if whole countries hadn't been pillaged, and their futures set on a radically different course by European invaders, if everyone just was on an equal plane, then how to describe people wouldn't be an issue.
History casts a long shadow I guess.
I'm happy to use whatever term I am told to use by the group or person I am describing, no skin off my nose.

I'm sure it's been said but I think black is unacceptable in the US while it is acceptable here.

There seem to be misconceptions about this on MN from time to time.

“Black” is definitely not offensive in the US, quite the opposite. Its use arose during the civil rights movement through a concerted effort to replace “negro” and “colored.” Polls indicate that most black people in the US have no preference between “black” and “African American,” and the media in the US use both.

And of course, when referring to someone who is not American, African American would not be accurate so black would be used.

President Obama refers to himself as black.

People of color developed as an alternative to non-white, which suggests that "white" is the norm or the default. I agree that the disinction between "colored" (not acceptable) and "people of color" can be confusing.

willferrel soz if I misunderstood your post

:o Buffy I've had that conversation many times too. Tbh I now try to cut to the chase and say "you know whatsisname the black guy" at the earliest possible opportunity, as long as it is a genuinely useful identifier, because I can't stand all the shilly-shallying.

To my mind as long as you would be OK saying "you know her she has long dark hair" and similar then it is ok to say "the black guy".

Then you get organisations like this that retain their original name:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Negro_College_Fund

Still, as with young black men calling one another the N word, I suppose it's all about context and everyone's right to refer to themselves how they wish.

(Like Spurs fans calling themselves 'The Yid Army')

I think we all tie ourselves up in knots but at last by so doing you show you are trying to minimise offence, which is arguably better than wilful ignorance and bigotry.

As I understand it "black" in the US (and largely in the UK) is comparable to "gay". Was adopted by rights groups as a positive identifier and has become the standard, official way of identifying a group. (For the time being at least!)

In the coverage of the recent controversial police shootings in the US for example, the news media, the police and protesters themselves have all used the term "black people" in a very normal, non-controversial way (though the issue itself is sensitive, the use of "black" isn't).

He may of not chose to say black as he may of wanted to include others as a larger group (such as Raza Jaffrey from mistresses who seems to be doing well in the US). He seemed to stumble when he got to that part searching for a word. He made a mistake.

I'm also a bit bothered by the fact that people seem to be attributing this whole fiasco to his 'privileged upbringing' and 'expensive education', as if this makes him ignorant of acceptable terms because he moves in certain circles.

How about this. I'm originally from Finland, where we have no discernable class system, and an education system that is widely acknowledged to be one of the best in the world (it's also free). Even if you're wealthy, nobody's really considered 'privileged' because we all have access to a quality education. The majority of Finns around the age of 40 and under are fully bilingual, as we're all taught English from a very young age. We've got it pretty fucking good - even if you're living in poverty, you're still entitled to a university place, a spot in a music school, because the Finnish government believes that everyone should be able to have these things.

There are also terrifying levels of racism, especially in the more remote northern areas. Big cities like Helsinki are more accepting of other cultures, but as a predominantly white (am I allowed to say white?) country, many of the older generation can't accept it. Not even slightly.

What I'm getting at, in a roundabout way, is that racism - actual or perceived - is not dictated by class or your standard of education or how 'privileged' you are. Finns get the good shit for free, and many are still racist. People can't legitimately use Benadryl Cabbagepatch's social standing against him. It's just another stone for some to throw.

Several people have said that if someone finds a word offensive then that is enough for them not to use that word. And others have explained how it is possible to do that on a 1-1 basis or small group basis, not more.

I for one, hate the term "white"especially when it lumps the Celts and the Saxons and the Mediterraneans and who knows who else, (and does it or does it not include a Russian Jew for example - my Russian Jewish friend sees himself as white his wife hates being lumped together on the tick-box form with xyz.) (They are in their late 60s by the way).

I refuse to tick any box on those forms. I am not defined by an arbitrary "colour". Look at me, know me , and decide then.