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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

AIBU to challenge detention?

87 replies

abraham · 17/01/2015 09:53

Just looking for some opinions/advice please . . .

DS1 started secondary school last Sept, so the whole secondary school thing is still really new to me!

He has been doing really well in all his subjects, bar one - German. Yesterday he received an after school detention for failing his German test (detention is scheduled for this coming Tuesday). If he had been given a detention for not completing homework, misbehaving etc. I would support the school 100% (he received a lunchtime detention for not completing RE HWK in his second week at the school, and there was a good reason for it too (he'd been in hospital having an operation!) - but I still supported the school). However, a detention as punishment for failing a test just seems unfair - and counter productive anyway.

He does go to what is generally regarded as being a very strict school, so I suppose what I'm asking is if this is normal practice across the board - or not? I might have a philosophical problem with it, but if it's a widespread way of dealing with failure then there's little point in me challenging it is there?

Just to complicate things further - he comes top (or very near the top) of the class for most subjects. Languages aren't his strongest suit, but he is still near the top of the class in his other language choice (Spanish) - he says he finds it hard to understand the German teacher's accent, and she conducts most of the lesson in German. Clearly she's going for an immersion approach, but surely then she should expect that this approach would take longer to take effect anyway? Going to sound really gorilla mum here, but I have to question if the problem here is not DS1 at all - but actually the teacher?!?

Any thoughts on this would be most appreciated!

OP posts:

Philoslothy · 17/01/2015 13:51

It could say that or it could say he has totally lost confidence in his abilities, in which case a detention is going to make things worse, not better.

Not necessarily, often a detention is a chance to build a bridge with a student you are struggling with, to work with them one to one and find out what the problem is.

ravenAK · 17/01/2015 14:05

I would ring (or better, email: if we're teaching & you're at work, the 'phone tag can go on for days), & say that you are concerned that he isn't reaching the required standard in German, as evidenced by recent test score.

If the teacher says he clearly hadn't revised for the test (& believe me, we can tell with a pretty high degree of accuracy the difference between finding a subject difficult & not revising), then he's bang to rights, he does the detention & hopefully it's a necessary boot up the bum.

If he/she says he's finding it very difficult despite clearly trying hard, then you ask what can be done, both in school & via your support at home - I teach Latin & could steer you to some v useful online resources, for example - to help him improve.

At this point, if it were me, I'd say that obviously you have no intention of undermining the teacher's decision to put him in detention on this occasion; but can they let you know when the next test is, as equally obviously it's very disheartening for ds to be in detention for poor attainment when everyone agrees he's working to the best of his ability, & you'd like to ensure he revises & practises especially hard at home in the run up so it doesn't happen again.

If it does happen again, despite you knowing that ds has definitely studied hard for this particular test, I'd be seeking a meeting with the Head of MFL.

Goldmandra · 17/01/2015 14:11

Not necessarily, often a detention is a chance to build a bridge with a student you are struggling with, to work with them one to one and find out what the problem is.

What is this obsession with punishing pupils?

One to one work to find out the problem is a great idea and really good practice. You don't need a detention to do this.

Philoslothy · 17/01/2015 14:16

Am detention is basically a way of a teaching saying at this time rather than being at lunch, break, walking home you will be with me and we will be working on this thing that you are struggling with.

Sometimes it happens on a voluntary basis, in fact often it does. Howvevr equally it can happen in a detention became many teenagers would rather be with their mates than practising their German.

Wibblypiglikesbananas · 17/01/2015 14:17

There seem to be a few threads about German teachers lately!

If I were the OP, I'd be questioning why someone who is so capable across the board just isn't making progress in this subject, which may well be an issue with a teacher. It's strange to perform badly in just one subject if you're very academic, particularly if you're also performing well in another taught language. How are his peers doing? Is there an issue with this teacher in general? Or, hand on heart, is your son really not putting in the effort he does with other subjects?

I read German to Masters level and one of the many preconceptions people have is that it's a 'difficult' language. This in itself can cause problems I think. It's actually extremely logical but gets a bad press in relation to languages that are considered more fun/useful for holidays.

Philoslothy · 17/01/2015 14:18

Students also need to learn to meet deadlines and follow instructions. Most teachers have hundreds of books to mark each week, they can't just wait for your child to decide that they have time that week to learn or do something. part of being part of a learning or working community is compromise and meeting shared obligations.

Howaboutthisone · 17/01/2015 14:25

I have to disagree wibbly. To be doing fine in Spanish and struggling with German is not necessarily due to the teaching. The Spanish grammar and vocabulary can often be more easily picked up by native English speakers as the case system in German ( whilst I agree it is logical and 'learnable') can present more difficulties, especially at this early stage of language learning.

Howaboutthisone · 17/01/2015 14:26

I do agree that these 'difficulties' can lead to pupils giving up and not working as hard, having already decided that they can't do it!

beakerandburette · 17/01/2015 14:31

Yanbu. Detention for failing a test is terrible! Poor DS

JsOtherHalf · 17/01/2015 14:36

I preferred german to french. However, despite two different teachers trying their level best with me, I could never grasp cases. I had the same issue with latin.
I failed O Level german, and passed french.

Goldmandra · 17/01/2015 14:37

Am detention is basically a way of a teaching saying at this time rather than being at lunch, break, walking home you will be with me and we will be working on this thing that you are struggling with.

Not at our high school.

They are not allowed to do any work, including homework. They either sit in silence or get sent out to pick up litter.

Goldmandra · 17/01/2015 14:41

Students also need to learn to meet deadlines and follow instructions.

Of course they do but doling out arbitrary sanctions really isn't the only or the best way to teach them this. It is, however, the method which requires the least thought or effort.

MrsCakesPrecognition · 17/01/2015 14:45

The problem is that "detention" sounds like a punishment, it doesn't sound like a supportive opportunity for 1-2-1 teaching to address my individual needs.
As an 11yo, I would feel punished.
If it isn't a punishment, then the school needs to come up with a new name for the supportive sessions, to distinguish them from punishment detentions.

Wibblypiglikesbananas · 17/01/2015 14:46

Howabout - I'd agree re Spanish vocab but not grammar. (I read German/Spanish/Italian). Cases are not difficult if explained properly. I can recite various rhymes re der/die/das, nominative, accusative, genitive, dative etc that my year 8 and 9 German teachers taught us - but then they were very good. There may well be a psychological connection, in that students feel more comfortable in a language they find accessible as words look/sound familiar but Spanish has many aspects of grammar that can be seen as equally baffling.

Philoslothy · 17/01/2015 14:49

That seems like a stupid sanction Goldmandra. if it was a behaviour attention it may run along those lines. if the student had damaged school property or dropped little I may have issued a litter picking detention. If they were in a detention for repeatedly talking out of turn Or being late I may issue a sit in silence detention .

If they have not done their homework, the detention time is to do their homework, otherwise I may be in a situation where I have given up my valuable time to supervise a detention and I still do not have the homework and I have to keep chasing.

if they are there because of lack of revision I would use that time to go over the work and resit the test.

To be honest even in a behaviour detention I would spend time repairing the relationship.

As always the problem isn't detentions it is the way their are used.

I am amazed that staff would give out arbitrary detentions, it takes up our time running them. In could spend my lunchtime marking which means less to do at home or I could issue arbitrary detentions and have more work to do later.

Philoslothy · 17/01/2015 14:52

The problem is that "detention" sounds like a punishment, it doesn't sound like a supportive opportunity for 1-2-1 teaching to address my individual needs.
As an 11yo, I would feel punished.
If it isn't a punishment, then the school needs to come up with a new name for the supportive sessions, to distinguish them from punishment detentions.

if you have not done my homework you do desrve to feel punished, you have done sometime wrong, however there is also a supportive element as well. You may have a point with langauge, when students are called back after failing a test I do call it a catch up session. However it is, like a detention, compulsory. Other students attend such sessions voluntarily. My students would know that if they have a homework detention they spend that time doing homework and getting advice/ help from me.

Goldmandra · 17/01/2015 15:15

I would fully support a school that provided compulsory catch-up sessions for pupils who had missed a homework or whose performance had dipped. I would hope that, as part of these sessions, the teacher would be asking a couple of questions to make sure there was not a reason behind the behaviour the school was unaware of, e.g. problems at home.

I didn't support our high school when they doled out a detention to DD1 for not completing homework in a subject that had not been on her timetable for two years. They tried to insist that she attended the detention anyway, even when informed of their mistake. They also seemed unconcerned that this appeared to be the first time that subject teacher had noticed she was missing and wasn't handing in homework.

If this school is typical (it has an outstanding Ofsted report), I imagine it is quite common to dole out arbitrary detentions. They are managed and supervised by one member of staff (who does not necessarily even know the pupils he is supervising) so it is an easy sanction for teachers to dole out.

doobeedee · 17/01/2015 15:15

Learning homework is still homework!

muminhants · 17/01/2015 15:22

If the detention really is for doing badly in a test I would absolutely challenge it. Unless it was actually asking the child to stay behind to go through it and help them go through it next time. But that's not a detention and should not be recorded as such.

But is it really for that? Don't go in all guns blazing - find out why he's got the detention and then if it really is for that test result, and not just a catch-up extra lesson, then challenge it. Detentions are for bad behaviour, not doing badly in a test.

My son's school hands our detentions like confetti, I do wonder if they lose their deterrent value after a while (he's only in Y7 currently so is still toeing the line).

If I did a homework or test badly I got a bad mark. Isn't that "punishment" enough for not revising or making an effort (assuming that's the reason rather than struggling with the subject/particular topic or just having a bad day). I went to a grammar school and the teachers managed to keep discipline without handing out detentions for everything.

Goldmandra · 17/01/2015 15:27

If I did a homework or test badly I got a bad mark. Isn't that "punishment" enough for not revising or making an effort

It certainly ought to be given a chance, especially with all the research that has concluded that intrinsic rewards are the best way to manage behaviour.

Philoslothy · 17/01/2015 15:31

I am not teaching at the moment but when I was , my classes had a test every fortnight on what had been covered the previous fortnight. If they did not hit a certain mark they went into a compulsory catch up. If this happened twice in a half term this was recorded as an official detention on their record because it was a sign that for two weeks they had not done my homework. I very rarely got to that stage and students revised throughout their GCSE course meaning they got great grades.

I could have let them just get away with a bad mark but I would not be doing then any favours.

Philoslothy · 17/01/2015 15:32

I certainly never gave out detentions like confetti and made much greater use of rewards

AuntieStella · 17/01/2015 15:33

I hope the OP will return when she has clarified if this is

a) a punitive detention, or
b) a retest, or
c) an extra coaching session.

CalicoBlue · 17/01/2015 16:01

Do you know if others in the class have the detention too? If the detention is for failing a test and obviously not doing the revision, I would expect other pupils in the class to be in the detention too. If he is the only one, then I would expect that he had to do spectacularly badly to be worst in the class and the detention is justified too.

However, they get so many detentions, or my kids do, I would not really worry about it. I gave my DS an incentive of an ipad if he could get through a term without a detention. Only managed half a term in year 11. They get them for so many things now.

Philoslothy · 17/01/2015 17:28

I would question whether the average child gets lots of detentions, IME both as a teacher and a parent that is just not the case. If my children, who are not angels, get a detention it is treated very seriously at home.

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