To consider spending £400 on a sleep consultant?

[Feelingverysleepy]

I am just beyond exhausted. I've not had a single full nights sleep (or even more than 3-4hrs continual) in 3+ yrs. 3yo wakes for a variety of reasons most nights and 10month old has never slept through (although I no longer feed at night). DH has a friend who's raving about miracles of the sleep cons they hired..... I am so tempted, even if it means no holiday this year (if I could sleep, that would be a good enough break!!).
Has it worked for you? Or would IBU to spend the cash on something I could / should prob be able to sort out myself?

takingchances may I ask what he/she did? I am having dc2 soon, and am desperate to avoid the bad habits that we got into with dc1. But not sure how to go about that so would love to know what a sleep trainer would do with a 5 day old.

I wènt to Mill Pond. Best money I ever spent. DS went from waking 5 times a night to sleeping through within a fortnight. Treat yourself!

Before you spend a lot of money have you tried rining your HV and asking for help? I've just had an hour appointment today for my son on potty training and she going to come back again in two weeks as we've been having problems. I'm sure they would help with sleep issues to that's what they are there for.

Don't go to clinic ring them up and ask for help.

"minipie: would love to know what a sleep trainer would do with a 5 day old"

I could be Mumsnet sleep trainer for free.

Good night time sleep is borne from good daytime sleeping and good feeding. A hungry baby will not sleep well. A baby suffering from extended overtiredness will not sleep well.

Birth to 6 Weeks

Essentials: Dummy, swaddle, Bedside/side car cot at night, Carrycot in daytime.

• From the outset aim to get 24 hours worth of feeds in 12 hours during the day - whether formula or breast. Little and very often during the daytime

• For the first 6 weeks if baby is not feeding s/he should be asleep.

• The time to cradle/hold newborn is during feeds. Straight after feed, put baby in carrycot to sleep.

6 Weeks to 12 Weeks

Essentials: Dummy, Bouncy chair

• For 6-12 weeks baby should not spend more than 90 mins awake at a time, pref no more than 60 minutes.

• Bouncy chair for daytime naps, with dummy, is hands-off way to get daytime naps established.

From around 14 Weeks

• Bedtime routine established from about 14 weeks (after 12 week growth spurt). Don't procrastinate. Bath, PJs, Feed, dummy, placed in cot. If any grumbling reinsert dummy and leave. Repeat as necessary.

• From 14 (ish) weeks, daytime feeding should be 2 to 2/12 hourly - six feeds through the daytime.

• Baby should still be sleeping often during the daytime. At least half hour every 2 hours, with at least two bigger (morning and afternoon) naps. Bouncy chair & dummy still works for naps.

• Wake and give a dreamfeed from a bottle (expressed or formula) at 11pm or when you go to bed. This is the seventh feed.

• Make sure baby is warm enough. Feeling cold will wake baby up.

• If wakes in the night, try dummy to settle. Should be able to sleep though, breast or bottlefed

• If needs feeding in the night then baby is not being fed enough in the day.

I think i may give this a go.

Ds is 9 this year and a terrible sleeper.

FATE - I have 3 dc, they have all been pretty good sleepers from 6 months and ds was a good sleeper form day one.

none of them fit your patterns

dd1 and dd2 would not take dummies.
ds would not feed 'little and often' he fed at 3 hours on the dot (his choice not mine)

Only one of mine liked swaddling, ds would scream the place down if you swaddled him, he liked to lie on his back all 4 limbs stretched out.

Only one of mine slept as much as yours did during the day, ds slept for 3 naps and then 2 of 1-1,5 hours. He slept very well at night, sleeping through from 6 weeks.

Your 6-12 week figures didn't apply to any of mine, they were all awake for far far more time than that. They were awake to 2 hours, then nap.

I find the idea that babies should only be held when they are feeding bizarre, we held ours in order to play with them! Did your babies not enjoy being smiled at, tickled etc???

None of mine would ever sleep in a bouncy chair, they wanted to be flat, and ds wanted to be in a dark quiet space, not sleeping in the kitchen/living room in a bouncy chair.

14 weeks sleeping half and hour every 2 hours plus 2 longer naps??
No way would any of mine have slept that much, they did the longer naps not the shorter ones in between.

I understand the principles you are stating, and in agree in principle with you, we did very strongly that 'feed in day and night time = sleep dream feed' etc. we established routines etc.

But I think your figures about sleep times etc are pretty much YOUR baby/babies and not all.
It may be different that my one who slept lots was an early baby (38 weeks) and the other 2 late babies (42 weeks) so don't know if that makes any difference.
I would hate anyone reading this to be worrying about getting your sleep patterns

Fate how lovely it would be if it were that simple.

I read Fate's post with a smile on my face

steppeinginto2015 - Re the playing with comment - Not in the first 6 weeks when you have a newborn. Of course you play with, tickle etc babies but as a newborn they just need to sleep. It is my belief that over simulation in these very early days is what makes establishing good sleep more difficult.

The use of a dummy will always split the crowd. It is the case that some babies dislike the dummy initially. It is possible to preserver and turn this around. Not every parent wants to, that's fine.

I should add that my (free) sleep advise was in direct response to: "what a sleep trainer would do with a 5 day old". Things would be very different once baby is older and already has set routines and habits in place that are not compatible to the above.

My youngest is 16 weeks by the way. Sleeping 11pm-7am from 8 weeks whilst exclusively breastfed. I have four children. All aside from eldest good sleepers.

Minipie - have a look at 'simply sleeptime'. They have full sleep consults, but also do a newborn package whereby they help you start out with certain habits to reduce any sleep issues occurring. I'm sure you could have consult before baby is born also

It is my belief that over simulation in these very early days is what makes establishing good sleep more difficult.

well, I must have done it all wrong with my 3 then

funny how they slept well....

persevere with dummy - yes we did, as ds had one and it really worked. we persevered. dd hated it and spat it out, every single time, never used one, never needed one, self settled without it.
dd2 we persevered, she used it a bit, was pretty indifferent to it, and found her own way of settling.

Your posts are just so smug - this worked with yours so it must work for everyone. Nothing wrong with the principles you outline, it is the insistence on for example dummy and swaddling for newborn, that is so off.
Every baby is different. 2 of mine didn't need a dummy, one really needed it. 2 of mine hated being swaddled, one loved it.

You didn't need a sleep consultant steppinginto. Neither did I.

I find it ironic that on the UKs largest forum bringing mothers together, that people have to pay for consultants when there is so much experience here on Mumsnet.

Your experience is valuable. My experience is valuable. Every ones experience is valuable. We have this wonderful resource in Mumsnet, where we could all join together, give loads of practical advise on what works for us. Someone, probably lots of people, will have been through the same or similar so may be able to help.

But that can never happen if anyone offering their advise if labelled "smug"

It's a shame. I was just trying to help. Lots of voices together with practical help and support for each other is a powerful tool.

I saw someone upthread ask what a sleep consultant actually did and could we share knowledge? Clearly not because anyone who tries gets name called.

I said you sounded smug, because, in my opinion, your posts didn't say

'this is my experience, it worked for me it may help'

they said

'do it this way, this is the way to do it, if you do it this way that works, if you do it another way, it doesn't'

I think one of the most damaging things for any mum struggling is to be told there is only one way and they are doing it wrong. I have tried very clearly to say I agree with many of your principles, they are great ideas, many worked for me too, but to say EVERY child should do anything, or that any particular way is the only way, is to me unhelpful in the extreme. Which is why I have said - great but that didn't work for us.

You said Your experience is valuable. My experience is valuable. Every ones experience is valuable. exactly, as I have said, but YOU imply that others way of doing it, or others experience with their babies is incorrect. My posts have said exactly that, this worked for you, something different worked for me.

Definitely contact a sleep consultant. We nearly did it with DD at 18mo when she was still waking three times a night (I'd been back at work since she was 9mo, so was totally knackered). Luckily we used gradual withdrawal and shush/pat, and this really worked for her (and us). However I think it was luck that we found a technique that worked and so quickly. It took about a month to get her sleeping right through without having to do either technique, but huge improvements in just a few days.

I would have spent anything, in a flash, if it didn't work. My tiredness was having a huge impact on our family (just one DD too!). I particularly like the descriptions of the sleep consultants who come up with lots of techniques and you choose together the one to use, every child is different and I know DD wouldn't have responded to being left to cry and I don't believe there's a 'one size fits all' approach.

You do have to be committed but with the right technique you can start to see improvements quite quickly which does spur you on. Good luck

I've not said anywhere that other peoples way of doing things is wrong. Neither have I meant to imply it.

I am posting in the context of the thread. My post should not be taken out of context.

If I was on a specific thread about a specific problem that someone was asking about, of course I would be more gentle. Suggest ideas to help. Reassure to build confidence. Ask about the posters own life with the baby to help her find her own solutions. And so on. That is what a support forum is for.

This thread, as I read it last night, had developed into a discussion about sleep consultants. My post is in relation to this rather than an OP in need. My post was in response to a hypothetical questions about a newborn 5 day old baby and what a sleep consultant might advise.

Your experience is valuable. My experience is valuable. Every ones experience is valuable.

I can understand not wanting to get into 'bad habits' as that's what's drilled into new mothers by books but surely at 5 days you barely know your baby least of all their preferences and what techniques, routines and props are going to help them specifically?

FATE thanks for your response. The more difficult question is what happens if you try all that (lots of milk, swaddle, dummy, into basket after feed) and they still won't sleep - or they wake up after a very very short sleep. That's what happened with my DD, I tried everything recommended and it didn't work.

What do you do then? My reaction with DD was to feed or rock her to sleep, since that worked, but that then creates a sleep association habit which causes issues later. I'm just not sure what alternatives there are other than leaving them to cry which I'm not comfortable with at 5 days old?

As it turned out, DD had tongue tie which meant she probably wasn't getting full enough and also had bad wind - but I didn't know that until 4 months and not sure if a sleep consultant would have picked that up either?

Artandco thanks, I will take a look.

At 5 days old, the sleep consultant showed us how to swaddle, how & where to set up the Moses basket, and gave us a rough guide of when the baby should be sleeping and eating.
She also then gave us 3 weeks of what's app support so we could send her pics and videos of the baby for advice (this was particularly helpful).
Our baby has slept 11-7 from 10 weeks old and is now doing 9.30 -7 with 3 naps in the daytime.
However it has been bloody hard work and requires huge commitment from all parents and caregivers to make sure you are fully consistent.

AttitudeOfGratitude - That's the point. At 5 days old baby has no preferences of technique - just feed, sleep and comfortable. So you can set things up more easily.

minipie - If a 5 day old still wont sleep then it would be reasonable to assume a feeding problem or pain is causing poor sleep.

tak1ngchances - I too would find it reassuring to have someone give me definitive guidance and answers, rather than a multitude of you could try this, or maybe that.

When I had my firstborn, it was before the days of mumsnet and similar. In the first four months of her life I read every single parenting / baby book in my local library and had started re-reading them again since I'd read them all.

I did this because I wanted a 'manual' to give me 'answers'. I think this is what a sleep consultant does, like the books did with me. They give you a sense of 'I can trust what I am doing here because the book said so'.

Eventually I became confident enough in my own parenting to trust my instincts. But this did not automatically come to me as a new mum. I would have loved for someone with authority to have come along, like I did earlier, with a "do this" list to follow.

I'm guessing this is how sleep consultants make a living. I am seriously giving it some thought to set up a website offering this service free of charge.

I'm sorry Fate, I don't agree. The baby is an individual who will develop its own personality regardless and IMO it's far too early to be forcing them into anything. Again IMO the early weeks should be about getting to know this baby that until recently was inside you. This includes cuddling them at times other than when feeding them. Setting things up easily does not equal a good sleeper, if it did these people would have no work.

I'm certain I was not suggesting anyone forces baby into anything.

Everyone has their own experiences to share

I think I might train as a 'sleep consultant' it sounds like a cushy number

I used Millpond and it worked for us. I can really relate to following through with something because you've paid for it. It was also the case for me that we were a bit lost and found that we were not sticking at things.

We had someone who gave us a plan (gradual retreat) and told us it would get better if we stuck to it but that it would get worse first, so not to give up.

Good luck - I think it's worth it.

I just wanted to post on here as I have had a bad experience with a sleep trainer. We had been co-sleeping with our 10 month old but he was still waking frequently and would often struggle to get back to sleep. I read this thread and thought a sleep trainer was definitely the way to go but after some positive steps (baby in his own room, sleeping a bit longer) it went downhill and he is currently waking as often as before. The advice we were given is that we were not being consistent and should not go into him even after an hour of crying. He then caught flu which I'm sure was made worse by the stress of being left alone for so long. We were assured that within a week our baby would be sleeping through the night (12 hours) but we are three weeks in and just have an unhappy, clingy baby and a mum who is even more sleep deprived and stressed from hearing her baby cry more in the last three weeks than he has probably cried in his whole life before. The sleep trainer came highly recommended and with a money back guarantee. Maybe it is just our baby as she assured is that all 200 odd other babies have been sleeping after a week but I would recommend thinking about whether you can deal with an insane amount of crying before you sign up.

If there were only one method of getting a baby or toddler to sleep consistently, and if it was easy for a stressed and overtired parent to implement, then sleep consultants would be redundant. Of course neither of these things is true.

If you can afford it - do it. It's often much easier to consistently follow good practice if it you have some sort of external support and aren't being made to feel like a bad parent because you need to sleep.

We sleep trained DS at about 10 months and it was surprisingly easy (so easy I couldn't believe that I had endured months of not getting more than 30 mins sleep at a time). But it takes confidence (or desperation, in my case) and I'd had access to a sleep consultant I'm sure I would have taken the plunge earlier - with the benefit of hindsight waiting so long put my physical and mental health at serious risk (I also work full-time).