To be horrified by the idea of 'nurserycams'

[Splinters]

Apparently a friend's dtds are starting at a nursery where parents can log in and watch their children on a webcam. I'd never heard of this as our nursery doesn't have it, and I'm horrified! Totally different to an 'open door' policy imo, because a) once the footage exists you have no control over these images of your child, and b) other parents could give their login details to anyone, so anyone could be watching without the knowledge of the nursery staff.

Obviously this isn't an issue for us at the moment, but I can't stop thinking about it now! Can you refuse permission for your child to be in view of a webcam, or does accepting a place at a nursery with cameras mean that you have to accept them? Because there's no way I would if we ever had to move.

I just don't like the idea of my child frequently being in images that are held by others.

How do you cope with all the CCTV cameras out there?

My DS was a 'star' in a TV documentary for Korean TV. I still haven't seen it.

I would trust the nursery to keep the log in details highly secure.

If I were a teacher or nursery worker I would welcome cameras for my own protection eg against malicious allegations of inappropriate behaviour

cameras would not bother me and like people say after being on big brother etc you feel self conscious to begin with but then you forget.

the care and safety of the children is all, the wishes of the adults come second.

What about all the other places your child could be seen on CCTV?

I think we have become way too accepting of all the cameras trained on our everyday lives. Not much I can do about the cameras on the street, but I'd protest against having constant surveillance extended to other settings (like nursery) too.

We care about dd's privacy. We don't post photos of her online, or allow others to do so, because we believe it's important to protect her privacy until she is old enough to make informed decisions about it herself. Other parents make other choices, but I would be really peeved to have to find a different nursery because I wasn't allowed to object to her image being streamed on the web all the time she's there.

Why would anyone want to be watching images of your child?

Why would anyone want to post or watch images from a hacked baby monitor on a website? No idea at all, but it happened.

At the nursery I work at we have CCTV in all rooms/outside etc. basically wherever the children go there is a camera. Parents cannot log into it, but the manager can if she's away. Plus parents can go and watch in the managers office if needed. It has been used, for example, when a child is settling in to nursery and parents want to see how they are doing without physically being in the room. Or even if a parent has wanted confirmation of something. To be honest I rarely think of the cameras. But I would hate to work somewhere where parents could log in to view. Not because I want to hide what I do every day, but because I would personally find it intrusive (who would want people watching them at work all day?!) and I feel it has the potential to be a confidentiality/privacy issue too. I'm not a fan at all, and I say that as a nursery nurse and the parent of a child who was at nursery.

Maddening this is about cctv that's broadcast outside the nursery over the internet, not the in-house type.

This is not just like professional CCTV footage, Goldmandra.

For the extremely simple reason that professional CCTV footage is only watched by a very tiny number of excruciatingly bored CCTV operators, only in actual rooms set up to receive that feed. The numbers being much smaller means that issues are less likely to arise, and where they do, there's some knowledge of who's been watching the CCTV.

This is completely different from hundreds of people watching from home because they've got the log-in via their grandchild, or found it open on their mate's phone, or hacked because they were bored.

What's more, unlike pro CCTV operations, the nursery aren't video data protection specialists: it's not their core job and will come waaaaay down the list of things they bother about on a busy day. Most of them won't have a scoobie about the system or how to keep it secure.

And no, I don't know why people want to hack shit like babycams, but apparently they do: "Hundreds of baby monitors and CCTVs hacked: how to keep your cameras safe"

BTW, I don't think professional CCTV operations are somehow foolproof: they're manifestly not. But this proliferation of amateur surveillance with mass web access sprays personal images about like a firehose.

I'm not sure what happened about it, but there was a plan to let the public access CCTV as it was cheaper than employing people to do it.

A sort of open-source Stasi, Back?

As others have said, nursery is different to the park or swimming pool: it isn't a public space, it's private premises where in the normal course of events it is clear who is there, and who has access to the children. CCTV with live steaming that parents (or grandparents, or mates) can log onto completely changes this dynamic: it makes it a near unregulated public space.

For those children who do need protection, being linked to a particular setting can be catastrophic for them.

That describes it well.

It made a bit of sense I suppose. Just the possibility that someone is watching might be a deterrent.

I had another search and apparently most police forces use volunteers. They are at least vetted I suppose and they have to be there, not viewing it at home, but when I was searching for that I found cases of police officers using it to look into bedroom windows. Who can you trust?

FamiliesShareGerms, I get the last line, but what does this mean?

in the normal course of events it is clear who is there, and who has access to the children. CCTV with live steaming that parents (or grandparents, or mates) can log onto completely changes this dynamic: it makes it a near unregulated public space.

It sounds like random strangers will be able to get into the nursery because there's a webcam and the staff won't be able to stop them.

Sorry I wasn't clear

If a parent brings a stranger with them to nursery, say at pick up, the nursery workers will know that "Sally's auntie came in with her mum this afternoon"

If Sally's mum instead decides to give the log in details to auntie, the nursery will have no clue

What's more, unlike pro CCTV operations, the nursery aren't video data protection specialists: it's not their core job and will come waaaaay down the list of things they bother about on a busy day. Most of them won't have a scoobie about the system or how to keep it secure.

They don't design and install these systems themselves. They have to use specialist companies and demonstrate how the data is kept secure.

Frist of all, some will have been done by a nursery worker's husband's mate for cheap. Using some stuff off the shelf and some cobbled together. Because that's what happens.

Secondly, even those who've paid for a professional company to install still have to run it day to day. Data protection is something people are typically RUBBISH at. They don't follow instructions, and even if do they can't get their heads round any situation that's slightly different.

And that's just the IT professionals who put illegally copied, unencrypted CDs of all Child Benefit claimants in the post.

Non-IT professionals are worse. There was a thread recently by someone whose bank branch sent out marketing spam to customers CC rather than BCC. And when the MNer called up to say, "WTF?", the branch manager couldn't see why it was a problem.

Oh, and they set passwords like "0000" or "date" or "Guest" or "SpangleNursery"

Exactly, Pausing. Creating risk for something that is completely unnecessary.

Frist of all, some will have been done by a nursery worker's husband's mate for cheap. Using some stuff off the shelf and some cobbled together. Because that's what happens.

Ofsted wouldn't accept that.

We care about dd's privacy. We don't post photos of her online, or allow others to do so, because we believe it's important to protect her privacy until she is old enough to make informed decisions about it herself

I do see where your coming from, but having worked with vulnerable people myself and seen with my own eyes how sloppy and careless people can be - thats without actual abuse etc, and having relatives in various settings, should my own child be in a nursery, her privacy would be a definite second to her well being.

People do not like to hear it on here and I have seen many nursery workers viciously attached on here for simply telling what they have seen on the other side of that nursery.

Its a shame because we should be encouraging people to speak out but the short of it is, I am afraid things change, and we need to do more to make these settings transparent, welcome regular un announced visits by parents, cameras and anything that takes away that barrier between child, career and parent.

FamiliesShareGerms Mon 05-Jan-15 20:14:07

for children who need special protection I am sure special measures would be put in place,

however the nursery is a public setting in the sense you do not know, inside and out like say your mother, the people looking after your child.

they are virtual strangers. in a private space with your child.

Oh I get why you want cameras in nurseries, Elf. But it's easy to leap out of the frying pan into the fire.

Mass access to nursery cameras over the internet would create new, huge problems without necessarily solving the first set of problems.

Just because Something Must Be Done, doesn't mean it's this Something.

FamiliesShareGerms, ok I get it now, but am really tempted to say 'so what'?

Poor quality and distant images of fully dressed kids is all they can get and they can get them when they play outside, but no one worries about that.

Against the protection of those same kids from those who work there.

FWIW, the 'peedos wanking over the nurserycam' issue hadn't really entered my mind when I posted the original question. I was thinking about internet privacy and CCTV culture mainly.

Mass access to nursery cameras over the internet would create new, huge problems without necessarily solving the first set of problems.

Totally agree.

As I said from the start I'm not totally convinced yet that they are a good idea. I pointed out a couple of possible downsides, but what were the first set of problems again?

If the first set was children being abused and/or neglected then cameras could solve that problem if done right.

Mass access to nursery cameras over the internet yes because that was the suggestion wasn't it.

Remind me what the huge problems it would cause would be? I think I must have missed that one. Even if someone got to see fully dressed children in a room how would that be worse then seeing the same children playing outside?

The important lesson I guess is that children being seen from a distance is worse than children being abused/neglected.