To question the normal division of chores and childcare based on some recent threads?

[theydrinkitinthecongo]

Bit of background - I don't have any DC's, but DH and I are in the 'shall we' stage of life. Lot of friends having babies, feeling like it might be our next step but a few things worry me and it mostly comes from threads on here.

Is shared parenting, and I mean real shared parenting where neither parent feels taken advantage of/put upon etc.... the exception or the rule?

Our relationship is fairly equal right now, but do we need to have 'the talk' before even thinking about trying for a child to ensure we're both happy with what divisions of labour/chores/childcare should be?

I just keep reading things (mainly on this board which may have skewed my perception) which make men sound like entitled children with no desire to contribute to family life unless you repeatedly sit them down and explain to them what they need to do.

This isn't normal family life, is it?

I think people need to get out of this myth of equality and talk about what's fair

Doing 12 hours labouring in the freezing cold is not the same as doing 12 hours as working in reception it's just not

Also I think a lot of women need to get a bit of a grip in feeling that housework and child rearing is somehow not worth wile or beneath them the assertion being that if they are the one to stop working they are some how getting the BUM deal well not really personally it's been a houner to watch my 15 year old grow

I think that yes, absolutely - you talk, talk and talk and you keep talking.

Having DC changes everything and it is an ever evolving situation, too. How you both feel about things changes when they arrive, it changes again when they move from babyhood into toddlerhood, again when they start school etc.

External factors come into play in myriad and unexpected ways once you have a family, but at the heart of it, if you have some basic consensus on a fair and shared attitude towards childcare and housework and you keep the lines of communication open, thats the best start.

My experience has been interesting. I was raised a strident feminist and had an all consuming career before DC. I was also very much undomesticated and could barely boil an egg and iron my own clothes in the morning . DH and I lived a young professionals lifestyle - out all the time, eating out or living off takeaways, a fast and undomesticated life.

I found the first year of motherhood an utter shock. DH was back at work and basically back to his old life of after work drinks and football on Saturday and being invited to events etc within weeks of the birth of DC1. I on the other hand spent months in a terrible muddle, feeling strapped to this little things who wanted to feed all the time, unable to keep on top of basic washing, housework, shopping, cooking etc and with all of the fast, fun, stimulating aspects of my life basically stripped away.

Motherhood and domesticity were huge learning curves for me, and for us as a couple. It took until my second DC came along almost four years later for us to really crack it. Communication all along has been key. It helps that DH is open to discussions on feminism and gets how important it is for me, for our DC, for us as a couple that I am not just swallowed up into a world of wife work and caring.

I also think the first year or two of the DC's life is very important. I see men who just basically opt out of the donkey work involved in looking after a baby - who think that because their wife is breastfeeding and on maternity leave, that means they are excused from ever getting up at night or tending to a sick baby or changing a poo explosion nappy or whatever. And I see women who lets this happen. But those first years are where the intense bonding happens. Its when a child learns who to cry out for when they need something - do you always want that to be Mummy? Its also when parents establish their role. I never wanted my role to be Chief Arse Wiper, while my DH becomes a figure in the background, and I have actively fought against that.

Its paid off in many ways, as now our DC are older primary school aged children, there is an assumption from all involved - us and the kids - that Dad takes as much responsibility as Mum for everything. He can put a plaster on a cut finger or de-nit hair or help with homework or drop to ballet lessons or take to a kids party or iron the school uniforms. And that makes all of our lived SO much happier.

One thing that I really notice on mumsnet is that there are a LOT of women who actually don't want to share parenting. Lots and lots of women on here actively want to be the primary parent. They may moan about it from time to time but, at the end of the day, they want their kids to want them first and foremost, not their fathers.

That said, even when women want to share parenting/domestic life equally, it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. My female friends are mostly highly educated, professional women who care about their careers and would like a 50:50 split at home. Only perhaps one or two of them have achieved this.

From the outside (I am still battling infertility and horrible bad luck), it seems to me that the success factors are: genuinely having had a 50:50 split to start with (not many do); sharing parental leave; and being quite explicit about division of labour.

To expand on the last one a bit, I think a lot of women seem to feel like it's 'petty' or something to explicitly divide domestic work between you and that you should somehow just see what needs to be done and do it. That almost always leads to women doing most of the work because that's the societal default. Most men were brought up with their mothers doing most domestic work and they just don't 'see' it in the same way. The couples I know who do genuinely have a 50:50 split have rules and routines - they have divided up chores, one does cooking, one does washing-up, one does laundry, etc, etc. One couple I know literally have a chart that shows whose turn it is to have a child-free weekend!

Because society pushes us all in one direction - women in charge at home - it takes a lot of effort and a lot of work to do otherwise, but it can be done.

DH and I split housework 50/50 before DC. I'm going back to work soon after maternity leave, he is taking his share of parental leave, and then we will both work 4 days, so things will be very fair again.

We do the same job, and earn more or less the same, so that makes things easy.

I completely underestimated how hard it would be for him to do a fair share of parenting during maternity leave though. Ebf a bottle refusing baby has meant that we are in a position where DC will only settle for me at night (a bit of a blow, given that he is still up 3 times a night at 9 months). It is only since we started on solids that I've felt i had a bit of independence again.

That said, DH comes home from work and immediately starts doing all the house work things I've not got round to. (Normally hanging up washing out the machine, and doing dinner). And he always does bathtime. So it means we do get an hour or two to ourselves to relax before bed.

I agree that the key is communication. It is important to be clear what you need from your partner, I think.

I don't think any amount of talking it out will completely prevent the risk of one parent at some time or another feeling put upon or taken advantage of. Because when you're in a baby blur your perspective will potentially be skewed.

As a parent of 6 and 4 year olds, with hindsight and my reasonable hat on, I know that we've both pulled our weight pretty equally since having dc...in different ways due to necessity.

But I really resented dh at times when ds2 was a baby. He'd skip out of the door (to me anyway) at 8am, to go and be with people - sit at a nice clean desk, have a cuppa in peace, converse with actual adults. Whereas I'd be chained to a testing 2 year old and screaming baby all day, up to my elbows in shit and vomit and still with the (self inflicted) expectation that I'd do housework too.

Unbeknown to me at the time, dh was dealing with his own resentment at the same time...working all the time, leaving in the morning when the kids and I were still cuddled in our PJs, missing the kids when I got to spend all day with them.

You can't talk out every eventuality because you have no idea how you'll actually feel at the time.

Sensible posts from both seaweed and Original.

Add message | Report | Message poster notinagreatplace Fri 02-Jan-15 12:02:21
But even if society pushes you in one direction your making the assumption their is something wrong with that watching your chid, grow is a blessing out of both of us my oh is the looser

I think men are capable of doing anything a women dose however I have to say when my husband is in charge of the kids and house things are always a little OFF so for instance one day oh came to meet me with dd who is two she was clean and her hair was brushed however she was wearing a tutu,wellies and jumper with a wolf on it he could find a top he liked so went a brought one form tesco she looked a bit mad tbh sadly I just don't think he has the eye for detail.

But then I am married to a mans man can't stand effeminate men

Maternity leave and part-time work bugger up whatever equal system you have going before then.
It is very hard to pull things back after that.
Obviously not impossible as posters here show, but I've found it impossible so far.

Somemothers - I don't think I was making that assumption. What I was saying was that, because society pushes you in that direction, it is very hard to parent equally - if that's what you want to do.

That said, I don't think being a good parent is effeminate.

How is being effeminate related to wearing a tutu/welly/wolf combo? (And, isn't this just what most 2 yr olds wear, when they aren't wearing fairy wings and a Spider-Man suit?)

A 50/50 split of childcare duties is quite rare. Statistically in most couples, one of you is likely to end up being the "primary parent" due to a combination of maternity leave and fewer working hours. However if you split parental leave and have roughly equal working hours then it is possible.

What is much more realistic is a 50/50 split of overall work. So if one of you does more child related stuff, the other does more cooking/washing up etc. Or one of you is always home for bedtime while th other works late so as to earn more. The key principle to aim for is that both of you have equal free time. So not the situation where DH carries on with after work drinks and Saturday football while you stay home and wipe bottoms. If he wants a night with friends then you get one too another time. etc.

And yes, definitely definitely talk and agree this principle first. And talk about money too - do you currently share all money? if not then you may want to talk about how that works during mat leave, if one of you goes part time, childcare costs etc.

Brandy, leave can now be split and either parent can request part time.

Add message | Report | Message poster parallax80 F

Not really not when your going to dinner

yes the new leave spilt if a good thing. I have always seen maternity leave as a poisoned chalice which can ensure women never earn much are pin money earners and end up serving men and children at home. It seems tempting to take it but it can turn round and bite you in terms of future life. Only take a long leave if you are sure it is right for you. Spread financial risk. Don't put all chickens in one basket.

On fairness as we both worked full time but I breastfed with the twins I tended to get up to feed them in the first year but if they were screaming and not settling would hand them over. As I was up more at night in year 1 in years 2 - 4 he did every night waking in the next 3 years as that evened out to the same number of night wakings as you get with a baby in year 1 (we never had sleepers for babies).

Also we had ap eriod when I had the children all day on Saturday whilst he worked and he had them all day on Sunday when I worked or whatever. So we knew we had a whole day free each week whilst the other cared for the children. Even couples where one is always at home could do that so they know the other half has a day "off" a week. If still breastfeeding you can do the feed and then disappear again for your free time/day off.

I work 4 days (wednesday off), DH works 5 days, I work 8.30am to 4.30pm, DH works 9.30am to 5.30pm.

On my workdays we share getting the two DCs ready in the morning, then DH takes them to nursery, when I head out to work. I pick then up from nursery, and DH arrives home at the start of bathtime, which we share. The cooking is then done by the one in charge of DD (we alternate nights with each child), and the washing up is done by the one doing DS's bedtime that night.

Only difference on Wednesdays and weekends is that we can sleep in a bit longer, and we still share the childcare.

We have a cleaner who does our ironing one morning a week, and then we have some things that one of us tends to take the lead on, like I tend to start the laundry at least, even if he puts it out to dry sometimes... He does other bits like DIY himself... I tend to take the lead on the kids, I do grumble that they'd never get fed if I didn't always sort it... But as he says, I know what they have got in, and what they have had recently, despite DH doing the weekly food shopping...

But overall, we each get about the same amount of sofa time, which I think is the major marker...

The new shared parental leave is very good news... I only wish it had been available when we had our kids. It'll be interesting to see how many couples take it up....

I agree that maternity leave is a double edged sword... Great that the UK has terms and conditions that are very favourable compared to many other countries, but , to those of us 'oldies' who just had the 12 week leave, the idea of a year off...lovely while it lasts but I think I would have struggled massively to get back into the workplace after such a long time out- it must feel as though you start living a completely different life. If we were having our kids now, I suspect we would go for 6 months off each, which seems a good amount of time to really get stuck into being at home, but not so long that you'd feel out of touch with the workplace

What is much more realistic is a 50/50 split of overall work. So if one of you does more child related stuff, the other does more cooking/washing up etc. Or one of you is always home for bedtime while th other works late so as to earn more

Completely agree with this. And it's also not the sort of arrangement that can be planned in advance to the nth degree.

With us, it's swings and roundabouts. For 6 weeks before Xmas I missed 5/7 bedtimes because work had an excellent overtime inventive on...so I was staying late and dh cut down to his minimum contracted hours to do bath and bedtime.

From this week, I'll be back to working my 4 days and doing most of the childcare and dh will be displaying his ultimate flexibility to his employer as bonus month is coming up :)

Ironically Yonic I have a dp who has taken a career break to mind dc1 and now works part-time to mind dc2. It still hasn't helped me "put down" all the responsibilities I picked up during that year of ML.

We always split things based on who was around when and what they were happy to do / were good at. I usually work long hours and find cooking relaxing, DH has a very flexible job but can't cook and neither of us are much good at cleaning / tidying.

In practice this meant that we had a nanny when DCs were small, DH did midweek child care either end of the day (and later ferrying DCs to and from school and to after school activities), I cooked and did things with DCs at weekends and we outsourced cleaning, ironing, gardening etc.

Neither of us felt hard done by and we have always viewed all our our income as 'family income' there was no tension around who did more paid work / who earned more.

I think that, even more than communication it's about respect. We try to stay on the same page as each other, on the same learning curve. This is our way of understanding, and therefore appreciating, what the other person is contributing. So when we first bought a house, we both learned how to strip wallpaper, put up a shelf, programme the heating system. We have specialized a bit over the years, and do the DIY and cooking bits that we prefer or are better at, but fundamentally we both know what it feels like to do a full weekend of DIY slog between 2 full weeks at work, or to cook a meal for 16. If I'd just flounced about with mood boards while DH did all the actual graft I might still feel grateful to him for all that hard work but it would be in a more abstract way. I wouldn't really appreciate how much work had gone into his DIY and it would be all too easy for me to slip into complaining he was taking too long, or making too much mess. But I've done it. I know it can take all day and create havoc, and I know DH would never criticise the mess I'd made, he'd quietly muck in.

The DIY is just an example of how we've approached most things, and children were the same. Mat leave was definitely the biggest challenge, and I did get ahead on the learning curve with DD which caused resentment on both sides. We countered this by having DH take sole charge for periods of time, and I wrote lots of lists. We muddled through. When I returned to work (PT) he dropped to working a 9 day a fortnight and had a day with DD. I didn't prep food or changing bag, or leave a plan for him, I just let him get on with it (and bit my tongue a bit at times). I had to trust him to find his own way.

I think the shared experience thing helps with respecting each other's contribution. It isn't about it being 50/50 now, it's about us both doing our best and showing appreciation to each other. I do most of the washing and cooking, he does most of the kitchen tidying. It sounds really naff but he regularly thanks me for doing my 'normal' jobs, and I thank him. We try not to take each other for granted. DH respects me and my contribution so much more than someone who never puts a wash on, or gives tea to the kids, or changes a nappy, ever could.

Also there are different ways to be equal. Friends of mine took nappy changing in turn at weekends. Lovely, nice 50/50 split, but it could get a bit snappy when they were arguing about whose turn it was. We did it the other way round. I jumped in to do it to give DH a break, he jumped in to do it to give me a break... I know it sounds twee. The end result was probably around 50/50 split, but we both felt a bit pampered because the other one had let us have a rest IYSWIM. It was a much fluffier approach. But it only works if you both commit to it and no one tries to take advantage.

Sorry for the epic post!

Well OP, judging by most reactions on here, the assumption appears to be that you're going to be the main care-giver. Why though? In a truly equal relationship, there should be no default assumption that the female partner gives up work or goes part time.

Would/could you work full-time while he's the SAHP? Why not both go part time and spilt parenting and earning between you?

I get the impression that most of the 'man-child' complainants on here are SAHMs who wouldn't want to be the main breadwinner for all the money under the sun. It appears easy to moan about your partners' inadequacies when you're preaching the the choir, and the predominantly female character of MNers means that you really only one side of that story.

I think the truth is that SAHPs and WOHMs both feel a huge amount of pressure and have numerous complaints about their partners' inadequacies. It would be fascinating to hear what these 'man-children' think of their partners' shortcomings and failures. I bet it would be difficult reading for many on here!

Wow, thank you so much for all the responses. It's a weight off my mind knowing that there CAN be something close to equal parenting.

We've chatted about things a lot, and I have to admit the parental leave is a new one for me but it's something I'd like to look at if/when it does happen.

We're fortunate that our jobs are well paid but that we're both happy to leave at 5.30pm and not bring it home with us (although this may change in future if either of us gets promoted) so, for me, the ideal would be for me to drop to 4 days a week (more easy to do as I work four extended days already and leave at 1.00pm on a Friday, just a perk of the job!) and for him to drop a Monday and work 4 days, leaving potential child in daycare for three days.

This is all very nice on paper and I can tell we'd have problems (who doesn't!) but the responses on here have given me hope, so thank you!

I like our arrangement. DH does all the housework and cooks dinner for himself and me, I do everything to do with the DC. It works for us as I'm shit at housework and he doesn't have a clue how to look after children.

One of the problems you may well find is that with less time for housework, the things that you do because you want to rather than need to may need to be dropped. Will you both be on board with that? For example one of you may feel it's important to cook extravagant meals, and consider the 2 hours that takes matches up against other work that's similarly long done by the other. Or one might want the vacuuming done daily and think that time matches up.

But these are wants, not needs, and unless you both agree however even the work is in terms of hours taken etc. then it can still be resented by one partner even though it looks even.

So you need to agree what those things you need to do are - how clean / how tidy etc. the house needs to be for both your sanity - and start thinking about what you can compromise on. There is less time with kids.

More importantly I would say really though rather than how you manage the chores, is how you manage time away from the baby for both of you. Both of you need time alone with the baby, and both of you need time away from the baby doing something recreational.

As WOHD, I don't really see obvious complaints like mumsnet about men, but possibly that is because I chose an employer who makes it easy so my colleagues do too and my friends tend to be more similar to me.