To question the normal division of chores and childcare based on some recent threads?

[theydrinkitinthecongo]

Bit of background - I don't have any DC's, but DH and I are in the 'shall we' stage of life. Lot of friends having babies, feeling like it might be our next step but a few things worry me and it mostly comes from threads on here.

Is shared parenting, and I mean real shared parenting where neither parent feels taken advantage of/put upon etc.... the exception or the rule?

Our relationship is fairly equal right now, but do we need to have 'the talk' before even thinking about trying for a child to ensure we're both happy with what divisions of labour/chores/childcare should be?

I just keep reading things (mainly on this board which may have skewed my perception) which make men sound like entitled children with no desire to contribute to family life unless you repeatedly sit them down and explain to them what they need to do.

This isn't normal family life, is it?

It depends really how you organise who looks after the baby and what you define as being equals.

I was a SAHM for the first few years so was responsible for looking after our babies and keeping the housework under control. My husband was very loving with the babies and played with them lots, but he didn't do much of the practical day to day jobs and he almost never got up in the night because he had a demanding job to do the next day.

We didn't do the same things, but I feel we had equal responsibility in terms of keeping our family happy and secure.

Now our children are older and I am working again, we share more of the housework and childcare responsibilities and our roles are becoming more like the way they were before we became parents.

In my ante natal group almost all the men either took on some of the parentAl leave or went pt after their wife went back to work. In each case, it meant the man understood what it means to be sole carer and as a rule I think all have pretty equal relationships. So I would agree with others that discuss ahead of time sharing leave or post maternity leave Childcare so there are no assumptions. I also know a lot of men who have for accustomed to doing school runs on certain days. Many of whom I suspect would have happily left it all to their wives instinctively. But the routine and commitment had helped a lot.

I agree it may be partly due to women relinquishing control rather than lazy men. I am sitting on the train on my first day back after mat leave, and i know that i have taken over everything in the last year. From him loading the dishwasher wrong to the children's routines changing by the day and having to tell him that we don't do this or that any more or dd2 has x milk now etc. When things are changing so quickly it becomes easier not to try to delegate!

on the part time working thing, it may work for some people but depends on your respective jobs/careers so you do need to talk about it. In our case dh works 80 hr weeks and is away most of the time. But he is trying to make partner and we have agreed that the ends justify the means. Yes it is hard a lot of the time, but the culture at his work is such that going part time or working to rule would be career suicide if they even allowed it. So it is a sacrifice we have decided to make, and i know i can go part time or sahm because he could support us.

Not in RL where I live.

MN Is very m/c career orientated and to be honest the type of people who will post on these threads often have an axe to grind and crop up on all of them.

I had 10 years out and have recently gone back full time,it has taken some adjustment but we're getting there.Dh happy to play his part fully,always was even when the sole breadwinner. We had 3 under 15 months so he didn't have much choice.

All my family and friends bar one have very involved partners,some do joint part time hours,some both work full time and some have a sahp. I have rarely heard the moaning re partners and fair shares you hear on here.Where I live it's no biggee and people just get on with it and regard it as team work.

Don't forget that some developments such as sharing leave are relatively recent and if women are posting after many years if parenting, there was less chance to get this in place from the beginning than you will have.

What duplodon said. Plus I have been a SAHM/student/part time worker most of the time since we had our first DC, while DH is a doctor, with the unpredictable long hours that entails. However when I did one year of full-time work & he went part-time he did pick up far more domestic work.

Well...we were going to do all sorts of things. Then DD turned up and and wouldn't ff. Cue 70+ hour weeks with 3am starts for me to keep the roof over our heads. Cue middle class incomprehension from my family that we couldn't job share and that the standard employer response for flexibilty was to sack on the spot.

Still managed housework, nappies etc but not as much as I liked.

My DS is 9m/o and I'm currently on M/L. Although my DH does his share of childcare I still feel that overall responsibility lies with me. DH will do what needs doing but only if I tell him, he seems to lack the initiative. However, like a previous poster said, the WOHP doesn't get to know the daily ins and out of the child's needs and routines in the same way that the SAHP does. It took me a very long time to find a way to manage my day to ensure that everything DS's related is done as well as keeping on top of the household duties and so I don't expect DH to know how to do it when he's out the house 5 days a week and typically only sees DS for a few hours before bedtime.

At the weekend DH takes on his share but like I said, I still have to give him some kind of direction.

Housework has always been more my domain but since being on M/L it has definitely fallen even heavier on my shoulders.

There is a man at one of my baby groups who is sharing ML/PL with his wife and he said he finds being at home with their DD far more draining than actually being at work. He said it took him by surprise as to how much planning, organising and forward thinking is needed to ensure the smooth running of the house whilst still attending to all the needs of his DD.

My DH is a teacher and currently off for Christmas and I think being at home 24-7 for the last two weeks had made him see how much of a juggling act it can be by being the SAHP and how you can literally be on the go from the minute you wake up until the minute you go to bed. And even if bed you can't switch off as there's still a waking baby to feed and deal with. He sees how relentless it can be being the SAHP doing all the child and household duties and that is certainly isn't fun and relaxing.

I go back to work in three weeks and I can't wait. Due to the nature of my job my DH will have to take on far more of the childcare duties and household duties and I'm looking forward to the balance being much more 50/50.

My pre children feminist self shudders at post children life. I feel I was sold a total lie - that I could have an amazing career, fabulous home and be a wonderful partner. In reality there aren't enough hours in the day.

No inequity issues in our household.
During the baby / pre school years we both worked 4 days a week and had childcare for 3 days. You need to abandon the old idea of a mother being the 'expert' parent: Dads do trips to the clinic for weighing, vaccination appointments, choosing a present for other toddlers parties and hanging out at the party, a fair share of sickness days etc.

If one person is a sahp the mutual understanding of how that creates a team with partners contributing different but equally important benefits to the family and household is crucial.

And the other saying if a friend of mine (she bring the higher earner in the family ) 'what is fair is not always the same as what is equal'.

Ours is proper shared parenting. To make it work I think you need willingness on both sides. If the DH isn't keen or the DW thinks her way is better it won't work. I BF and took mat leave but this was offset a bit by CS recovery time as OH brought baby to me for feeding and did the settling. So we both had to be involved.

To make it work we also found we had to spend time agreeing how things would work - eg routine, sleep, feeding etc. and then spend time making sure we both got up to speed on how to do things even if tricky - eg once one of us could settle baby biscuits well we walked the other through what we had done, which was a gaff but worth it on the long run.

We still have others assuming the mum will know/do everything which is amusing. And the female counterpart of traditional couples telling OH he is 'amazing' - which really pisses me off.

Gaff = faff

My pre children feminist self shudders at post children life.

Me too.

My husband is a lovely guy and I am madly in love with him, but I hated him quite a bit through the early childhood years. I can't believe we weren't on the same page before we had children, but this seemed absolutely normal among my peer group.

We are equal, much helped by DH being a SAHD for longer than I was on maternity leave and us both having flexible jobs. But of the 8 couples on our NCT course I think 4 are very unequal (men working long hours not making any changes etc) and the other 3 somewhere in between.

I do think it's important as feminists that the domestic sphere is given value. It's actually peculiarly anti feminist to view what was 'women's work' as inherently lesser. It also lends itself to a worldview where boys and men don't always attend, or value attending, or are not supported to value attending, to taking care of their home or making strong attachments with their kids, which is bad for people everywhere and nothing to do with gender. The problem is it often feels is literally reinforced by society at every angle, not just with pink vacuum cleaners but with the insistence that housework and childcare are drudgery and beneath anyone 'with a brain'. In reality, having a reasonably clean, comfortable shelter is as important as breathing, eating, drinking. It's a fundamental human need and its value isn't based on pay or status. I've lived in chaos and it really does affect a family negatively. Part of the real battle in achieving equality is to avoid seeing these tasks as inherently negative, as primarily that's about social messages about their worth based on their history as women's tasks. There's really nothing that inherently awful about laundry, making beds or doing dishes.

My dh works full time but he has changed what that means. He works 8:30am to 6pm. Pre-ds he would often work till 7/7:30/8 and there is pressure to do that but he puts his foot down that he has to be home for bathtime.
I think a lot of men who are too scred to ask for time off or p/t hours are also too scared to control their f/t hours.

Absolutely you should talk

• general expectations of sharing workload, SAH etc etc
• how you will manage finances
• parenting philosophy
• private v state school (if you think this may be relevant)

I am constantly amazed how many people seem to fall into having children without some basic discussions first.

I read a lot about unequal relationships on mumsnet, and I have no doubt that they are real and they do exist.

On the other hand, in my real life circle of friends and family, i don't know anyone who feels particularly aggrieved that their husband doesn't pull his weight, with the one exception of a friend whose husband never cooks. But the non cooking husband does loads and loads of other things and isn't a useless man child, it is just cooking that stops him in his tracks.

I think the reality is that, especially on an anonymous forum, people are naturally more likely to post 'my partner is driving me mad' because in all honesty there isn't much to discuss if someone started a thread saying 'my DH takes equal responsibility for household chores and childcare'.

The poster who talks about communication has it spot on. And also respect. I appreciate what my husband does by going to work. He appreciates what I do as a sahm. It's inportant to him that I have as much time out as he does in a normal week. I know when I worked I had this idea you got 6 months maternity because it was nice to spend time with the baby - the hellish reality of 24/7 care was a bit of a shock. And equally that a busy job with stressful deadlines etc was far more demanding than pootling about at home with a toddler. Laughs hollowly.
Here's an interesting question to ask your DH. Query whether he'd be willing to "help you" with the baby at weekends/evenings. He'll probably say yes. Then start a discussion about why he wouldn't think of the baby as equally his responsibility. Not yours to help with. Yes it's semantics but it's a very interesting one.

Pre-DC, It was much easier for "equality" to mean a 50-50 split (both working similar hours, both splitting household chores etc). Post-DC (me still on ML) "equality" means something completely different as our roles now look totally different from each other. Sometimes it is hard to judge what is fair/equitable (is it fair I do all night wakings? Is it fair to expect DH to take over when he gets home after a full day at a demanding job? Etc). You have to negotiate, but be empathetic - talk lots though it can be hard when the whole dynamic of your lives and relationship changes.

Communication is key...
You are doing the right thing by having these discussions with your partner, and you'll need to regularly re evaluate how things are going to ensure that you're both happy and fulfilled and neither partner feels that they're getting a raw deal.

FWIW, I am much further down the line than you (children all grown up now) but we have managed an equal set up pretty much all the way along. With the option of shared parental leave, it's a lot easier for you, and if I were you, making use of your partners right to share the leave will be a big early step in keeping things on an equal footing.

Ultimately, I think couples largely get the relationships they create (notwithstanding that life and circumstances sometimes throw a curve ball.) Among our friends, many couples are similar to us and have pretty equal careers, and have both contributed to household chores, cooking etc all the way along. Of couples I know who have more polarised roles, with the man working and earning significantly more, and the woman doing a lot more household related things, it's because somewhere along the line they have made decisions which prioritise things that way ... Eg in some cases the woman had a really long period of time out of paid employment, or in some cases never returned to a full time career once the children got older.

There's no right or wrong here; it's a case of keeping the line of communication open and creating the partnership you want.

We have a set up that is as close to equal as it is possible to get. When I was on maternity leave I did feel that DS was somehow more my responsibility than DH's and it was something we argued about.

Once I went back to work things got a lot more even though. We both dropped our hours slightly so we could cover childcare between us. It helps that we both do the same job so neither of us can claim to have the more important job.

I think both parents need to be in sole charge of the baby at times to really understand the work involved. I can see how it would be easy for the one who is with the baby most to take over.

I would be wary of being too specific when discussing who will do what, as it is a huge shock when the baby arrives, and it takes a lot of adjustment.

My OH is brilliant, so luckey to have him.

He is out working 1pm-2 am 5 days a week, when he gets home every single night he does her next feed/change/deal with her clinginess. On his days off he does bulk of child care and insists I have some me time! As well as doing jobs I've not managed whilst baby is in the won't be put down phase.

We never discussed it, we just sort of fell into it. I always worry he doesn't get enough down time but he insists a day at.work is easier than the baby for 13 hours straight!

Yes, perfectly possible. We both worked full time and I was back at work in weeks full time so no room for sexism there. Secondly both are feminists.

How did we divide things - lots of discussion before children arrived. I was reading feminist tracts in my teens which always helps; married someone who already had a house, his own washing systems and the like -he knew more than I did domestically so he was showing me things like how to work cookers and dishwashers.

Never let yourself think you are better with children or cleaning than men are. Men have arms therefore they can do as much as you. No man is "good" if he does what a woman does at ho me. He's justn ormal. My father did all the night waking of babies - bottle feeding as he was used to being up at night (did on calls as a doctor) . that was 1960s. He hoovered the hosue at weekends etc etc. These things are not new. For decades men and women have achieved fairness at home. Don't tolerate someone unfair.

The secret as well as feminist views is dividing tasks - eg he did all washing for a few years and I didn't even think about it. I did our tax returns. I got children's school bags ready for next day. I waited until the nanny arrived at 8am. He got home first by 6pm after work.

I am sure it helped that ultimately I earned 10x what he did (both working full time). So always prioritise maximising your income as a woman and then life at home and work and financially can never go far wrong.