to think this company are asking for a huge amount for a miniscule salary!?

[Mintyy]

I'm really shocked see here.

When replying, please bear in mind that this is in London.

It's true its appalling that wages haven't risen in line with how expensive life is (particularly housing). It's why a basic house may cost over 10x your income now which is nuts.

But this is basic economics. The value of your time and effort are not worth what they were 20 years ago. The value of housing reflects its function as a hard asset. The value of food and fuel are a function of both resource and transportation, and the value of the currency you are pricing them in is declining. Human resource is declining across the board in what the majority were educated to believe was the traditional employer/employee form. Human labour in many cases simply is no longer worth what it was.

But many people adapt, learn and move with the changing employment landscape. Those people meet with little resistance, and the herd has not yet learnt to adapt or see the changes that are occurring, like the 1980's when the masses really did not comprehend the impact computers were going to have on their work.

Change and adaptability are the dynamics that will drive the economies of the world forward for the foreseeable future. What I mean by that is that fundamental changes in what the market requires from individuals will become increasingly frequent, and those who succeed will be those with the skill sets and the ability to construct the foresight to adapt. This job market will not be the same in 5 years, or 10 years. Change itself is accelerating.

Yes, that really fucks over those who were taught to work in the old job paradigm. But evolution stops for no man. There is still a job for them, only their value has declined dramatically, and they can complain all they wish. If they are unable to provide value to the market, then they are simply worth no more than what the market will pay.

Example - Relative worked for 40 years in the collieries. They closed. He is no longer able to provide any value to the current job market, and is unable/unwilling to adapt to the new world he has slowly become aware of around him, so he claims benefits and rants on about Thatcher and the gold age of shovelling shit in a dark hole in the ground. Change happens. Some people can't move on and resent the world accordingly. It helps no one but it cripples the person who is gets stuck in the past.

I'm finding it quite shocking that so many people weren't aware of this. I guess if you are a high earner and only move in circles with other high earners its easy to do?

It is not the responsibility of an employer to compromise the economics of their business in order to pay more than someone is worth. You are effectively saying that a business should pay more wages, at the expense of the business' efficiency, therefor threatening the business in a competitive market.

If someone isn't worth £25K a year it is that persons problem. They need to learn to be a more valuable employee. If a job function is only worth £15K a year to a business, then that is the a fact of economics. If they can't fill the vacancy, then they are wrong and their business suffers. If they can fill the vacancy, then they are right.

You cannot legislate higher wages. By doing so all you do is increase unemployment. We could pass a law saying no person shall be paid less that £40K a year, and instantly make tens of millions of people in the UK unemployed. You cannot legislate value in the market without harming people.

I see there are now 45 applicants, low salary or not.

They expect this job can be done by someone with only 2 years experience. Presumably, once the successful candidate has gained 1-2 years experience in this particular role they will be able to apply for something with a higher salary.

If they have followed the convention that the key responsibilities of the post are listed first, then you can assume that about half of the list of tasks are 'occasional' and many of them will take very little time to do. Eg, ensuring videos are uploaded (I assume they are checking someone else did it - 10 seconds), ordering stationery - not likely to be a daily task; maybe 1-2 times a month?

I hope 'Prepare training materials' means things like updating the date on PowerPoint slides and printing hard copies, putting hard copies into folders for delegates etc. Not writing the content!!

If I was interviewed for this post I would be sure to ask at interview what the volumes / frequency and duration of each task is, and the likely proportions of the different types of work. Conferences held once a year is a different workload from conferences held once a month.

I'd also want to know if I'm the only person doing these tasks, or if some of the tasks are shared.

Sure, it will be tough to live on that, but I also believe there are plenty of jobs, even in London, paying less - and many of those will come with absolutely no perks at all. Caring has already been mentioned.

I'm surprised at the comments about how you wouldn't expect someone to be putting together training materials fir this salary. About twelve years ago I was in a job where I was responsible for training new staff, drawing up training manuals, procedure handbooks etc. This was within one of the UK's biggest companies. My salary was about £11k at that stage. The HR training manager was only on about £13k. People were desperate to work for the company because it looked like a prestigious employer but as a result they were able to pay a pittance.

I'm in the East Midlands. That job locally would be 12-14k absolute tops so seems a generous salary (although I accept London housing costs are insane and so it would be hard to live on this amount)

And also at the 'putting together training materials' this often means collating a whole load of different papers rather than writing them or designing them. Jobs are often 'bigged up' as I found out to my disappointment when I got a job a bit like this one as my first post grad job. I was so excited about what I'd learn, then spent a year stood by a photocopier for 17K (London based, 10 years ago).

I agree salaries not rising with inflation is an issue though, but the economic climate has been tough - there are some companies who could have possibly been more generous, some who have been able to keep afloat by freezing pay.

I'm just outside London and salaries for similar roles are far worse than that. Lots of admin jobs are being advertised around the £15k mark. I was earning £16k when I left Uni in 1997!!!

I'm a PA and it's not a PA job but it does require someone who has initiative and can just get on with things. I doubt you would get that from most people with two years experience.

Also, I'm really interested at all the people who say this is a doddly job. Have you all done admin jobs before? As someone said upthread, admin staff often absorb all the crap that no one wants to do. Consequently, their jobs get busier and harder. There are so few admins and PAs these days that workloads are crippling and salaries are shite. It's one of the many reasons why I am changing career.

Salaries for Directors haven't stalled though, have they?

I earn £30k and the three bosses I work for earn £1.5m between them... not including benefits....

That is not a bad salary given the level of experience they are looking from. Doesn't look as if they expect too much if they have posted an advert with stationery misspelled in it either.

That would be an excellent salary round here. I have applied to several similar jobs with salaries of more like 14-16k. Compare it to the starting salary of a doctor or a teacher, I know those are public sector jobs but for the amount of experience and training needed salaries are very low (22000). Graduate jobs are low paid across the board at the moment.

The higher up the food chain, the more employers are convinced they are worth that amount. I know many people in finance on over 500k a year. You think a lot of them were pretty dumb if you met them at dinner. Opportunity and confidence are the biggest contributors to renumeration. I include schools in that. Your lawyers over a million all seem sharp though.

Employees* think they are worth it.

Granted, this job (below) is not in London, but the role will exist there. Also being a prison job they get a premia of £1,500 per year, but for similar money, the role is a hell of a lot more involved. The responsibilites are tremendous, peoples lives can depend on you. So, no, I don't think the original company are asking a lot for the money tbh.

Post Title : Band : Post Ref. No.

Job Description

1. Job Details

Job Title: Primary Care Assistant Practitioner

Service : Prison Healthcare

Department/Directorate Provider Services

Reports to (Title):
Team Leader

Accountable to (Title):
Healthcare Manager

Location/Site/Base:
*

1. Job Purpose/Main Duties/Responsibilities

• To provide a high standard of clinical care for all prisoners. • Under the supervision of a Registered Nurse, to implement and evaluate care in partnership with colleagues and prison staff when required • To deliver minor injury, minor illness and emergency care under the supervision of a Registered nurse to include wound closure, wound dressings etc • To provide a high standard of accurate written work including all IT entries. • Be expected to participate and contribute to audit as required and expected • To refer and liaise with other professionals and agencies to ensure patient centred care. • To ensure a high quality service is available for all prisoners, within the custodial environment equivalent to care received by the wider community from the NHS. • To adhere to Prison Service, Rules, objectives and principles. • To supervise and give direction to the Band 3 Healthcare Assistants. • To undertake administrative preparation to ensure effective operational delivery of healthcare. • To have an awareness of Prison Health Performance Quality Indicators and other relevant standards. • To be able to work autonomously and as part of a team. • To be a good communicator with a range of people, ie Prisoners, Prison Staff, Clinicians etc • To work in partnership with the Prison. • To be able to prioritise work load, whilst maintaining standards. • To attend and contribute to PCT and Prison meetings when required.

1. Nature of the Service

HMP *** is a Male Category C Training Prison.

Healthcare is provided 7 day a week. Monday to Thursday is form 07.45 until 20.00 hrs, Friday 07.45 – 17.30 and weekends 08.30 – 17.30. The Healthcare team is made up of a mix of mental health and adult Registered Nurses and Healthcare Assistants providing cover on a Rota basis over 7 days. The Healthcare team is responsible for meeting the Primary care needs of the prisoners, this will include effective triaging, Mental Health, Physical Health, management of long term conditions such as diabetes, Epilepsy, Heart Disease, Cancer etc. Health promotion and Health screening is also an everyday part of the role, South Staffordshire PCT aims to have in house nurses trained to address the needs of our client group wherever possible.

The Healthcare team is supported by a range of commissioned services, such as GP, Dentist, Physio, Secondary Mental health team, Sexual Health to name a few.

The Nursing team also responds to medical emergencies within the prison this may include attempted suicides and Self harm, accidents, fire alarms sports injuries, cardiac arrest.

Working in Prison healthcare is a challenging but rewarding career, the role of the Prison nurse is varied, and offers opportunity for professional development.

Safeguards are in place to ensure your own and others security at all times.

1. Organisation Chart

1. Key Responsibilities/Duties

1 Produce appropriate protocols and procedures for the effective management of the service provided by the post holder. 2 Undertake assessments/observations/interviews. Develop, implement and evaluate individual care plans 3 To organise call and recall procedures for all long term conditions 4 To provide and receive complex, sensitive or contentious information and ensure effective communication with clients, relatives, and professionals, whilst acknowledging potential barriers to understanding and dealing with hostile or highly emotive atmospheres. 5 To demonstrate persuasive, motivational, negotiating, training, empathic and reassurance skills with clients, relatives, colleagues and other professionals 6 Where appropriate provide support and encouragement to self manage long term conditions 7 Work is managed and goals agreed and reviewed at intervals; works independently on a day-to-day basis 8 Build on relationships between primary care, secondary care and the voluntary sector and maintain good communication through networking, education and information exchange 9 Support and implement services that are sensitive to the needs of and motivated through the active participation and involvement of service users and their carers. 10 Contribute to monitoring and evaluating the service by developing processes to monitor client satisfaction, audit and outcome measurement 11 To maintain appropriate clinical records where required 12 To contribute to and conduct research projects, evaluation and audit, literature searches, data inputting and analysis as agreed within the post-holder’s personal objectives/work plan.

13 To comply with all appropriate operational policies within *NHS Trust
14 To be computer literate, demonstrating the ability to use Microsoft Office, current statistical software packages and literature search databases.

1. Responsibilities of the Post Holder for Specific Areas

Responsibilities for direct/indirect patient care • Providing clinical interventions in a prison setting • Responding to the demands of a diverse and challenging prison client group • Under regular clinical supervision • Responsible for updating patient care plans and reporting to the Registered Nurse of any changes. • Under the Registered Nurse supervision, administer patient specific, homely remedy and PGD medication.

Responsibilities for policy and service development implementation
• Undertake regular clinical supervision from a Nurse to discuss current clients. The post-holder will use supervision to show development of care initiatives.

Responsibilities for financial and physical resources
• To contribute to the effective use of resources
• To maintain supplies and equipment as required by both the Trust and Prison Service.
Responsibilities for human resources (including training)
• Ensure Trust and prison service policies and procedures are known and adhered to.
• Planning and organisation of own day-to-day workload.
• To take responsibility for meeting own development/training needs.
• Be responsible for your own health and safety and the health and safety of others around you.
Responsibilities for information resources – if any
• Ensure records are accurate and up to date, submitting statistics as required.
• To provide information when required which will help with the achievement of organisational objectives.
• The post holder will engage in both written and verbal communication, which may involve information of a confidential and sensitive nature. The post holder will be required to exercise ethnical practice regarding such information.

Responsibilities for research and development – if any
• To maintain an up to date professional knowledge through life long learning.
• To attend relevant training as identified through the appraisal process or as deemed necessary by the Trust/Prison Service
• Participate in clinical audit as required.
• Ensure the use of research and evidence based practice to provide quality patient care

1. Freedom to Act

• Responsible for working collaboratively with managers, primary care staff, other mental health professionals and voluntary agencies to develop primary care services

Prison Requirements

• To pass a National Offender Management Service enhanced security clearance and enhanced CRB Clearance
• To maintain the security of the Healthcare Department in accordance with the requirements of the Security Manual.
• To participate in meetings and assist in the formalisation of prison strategies (multidisciplinary meetings and reports).
• To be familiar with the correct procedures for dealing with prisoners as defined Prison Service Orders, Race Relations Policies, Equal Opportunities Policy, Suicide Awareness, Anti-Bullying and Drug Strategies and all local instructions and Governor’s orders.
• Follow Prison/Trust Policies for dealing with complaints from prisoners or their relatives.
• Ensure self harm/suicide risk procedures and reviews are adhered to and identify
own training needs.
• To read and understand PSO 1400 “Incident Management”, which contains information on Hostage Incident Guidance.
• To read and understand PSO 4400 “Prisoner Communications” with particular reference to chapter one on Child Protection.
• Take personal responsibility for issued keys.
• To adhere to Prison Security policy at all times.
• To understand the consequences of not adhering to Prison service Orders

8 Effort & Environment Factors
Physical effort
• Combination of sitting, walking and standing
• Able to respond to unpredictable nature of workload including frequent interruptions, noise levels etc
• Full driving licence and access to a vehicle on a daily basis
• To have a reasonable standard of fitness and agility to meet the demands of the job.
• To be willing to work and travel to other prisons when required, and to travel to attend training within the Trust area.

Mental effort
• Frequent computer work, including use of Trust Clinical IT System and Prison Service systems.
Emotional effort
• Exposure and involvement in distressing and highly emotional circumstances.
• Exposure and involvement to traumatic incidents.
• Prisoner support.
• Peer support.
• Keeping focused when working with a demanding and challenging client group.
• Keeping abreast of rapid changes in Prison Service/SSOTP Partnership.
Working conditions
• Exposure to incidents of a volatile nature i.e. prisoner unrest
• Possible physical and verbal aggression from prisoners
• Occasional contact to bodily fluids in an identified high risk client group
• Frequent interruptions

elephants - you have a somewhat strange style to your posts. You come across quite didactic. You aren't really revealing the secret stones of economic theory in your posts, its all pretty obvious and elementary stuff. (although i do not concur with some of your opinions.)
If you found a way to credit other posters with economic literacy you may come across as a little less abrasive.

getthefeckouttahere - I love it when someone posts a word I need to look up on Google. Thanks. :) The thing is the basics of economics are overlooked by 90% of people in favour of emotion and a lack of research/understanding. There is no real complexity to how the world works. Most of the confusion is either deliberate obfuscation created by the media, or complete failure to understand how and why the system functions as it does.

A starting point may be to ask why most people are taught by the state, but the wealthy teach their children privately? State education is designed to teach children to be good citizens. To vote, operate systems, and never question or think outside of their inherited paradigm.

The rich do not teach their children to think this way. The actually teach their children to think differently to the masses. That is the difference between us, and them, and why they govern and we believe we have choice.

The lower end of the salary bracket seems unreasonable. The higher end seems OKish.

I got my first admin job as a new graduate in London 10 years ago in 2004. The salary was £18,000, it was in the education /charity/arts sector and there was certainly no more responsibility or specialist knowledge required than in this role. So it is a bit really.

Elephants I think the problem with what you post is that you are making massive generalisations that are impossible to validate as accurate. So it doesn't make them true, it just means they are generalisations.

Whilst avoiding raking through your entire post, one generalisation I picked up on is

To vote, operate systems, and never question or think outside of their inherited paradigm this is meaningless and unsubstantiated, and inaccurate.

Having gone to private schools, I certainly wasn't taught to "think outside my inherited paradigm!" I was taught subjects, compartmentalised disciplines. Not much difference to state education in fact but we had smaller class sizes. My DSS goes to a state run school and I know exactly how he is taught and it isn't just messages about the need to vote, and to sit there, shut up and not challenge anything.

I agree the world is changing and change can be painful and difficult to people in how it affects their lives. But your post seems to vilify people who are struggling to seek employment and to try to match their skill to market needs. and questioning the going rate for a job role is part of that process. So please stop derailing this thread with a lot of waffle which is extremely difficult to make much sense of. It sounds like a lot of words that ought to make sense but a lot of it is just words!

They should add proofreading to the skills. The ad spells "stationery" wrong.

yw elephants.

Don't get me wrong i enjoy yr posts and broadly agree with what you say. The trouble is i sometimes think you state an economic theory as an economic fact.

Either way i still think 17k is a bit tight for this job!

daisychain01 - I know we are off topic here, and I cannot explain that by focussing on one single miniscule thing (in this case a job advert), anyone has any way of understanding the dynamic they are viewing. We can all throw judgements at a salary, or a job description, and compare them to another incident at some time in the past, but without actually viewing the job market, and the dynamics affecting it, the comparisons and judgements of the minutiae are meaningless.

But I see that trying to explore this is outwith the parameters of the post, or the interest of many.

Either way I still think 17k is a bit tight for this job! - I see what you say, but that is purely a reflection of your value of your time and effort. What you are effectively saying is, "If I were looking for that job, I would not do that job for that amount of money." That is how much you value your time and effort, and how confident you are that you can demand more money if you needed to in the current market. Others do not attribute the same value to their labours as you do to yours. They may not be as diligent, effective, competent, experienced, etc. So they do not offer the same value to the employer.

I earned 11.5k in London, in a similar admin role... in the late 80. My hours were 8-6. 2 years before that that I earned 7K for 9-5 in a starter role, also in the centre of London.

What has just struck me is that you'd probably only need a quarter of me to do the same roles today. Cos.. technology will have done away with the time consuming nature of many of my tasks/duties. I didn't even have a WP. We even had to beg ask the secretaries if we needed something typed up. Which meant lots of persistent lurking with a pleading look in your eye.

Is it possible that wages have dropped in real terms becuase there are fewer roles (due to tech causing shrinkage of time consumption of tasks), but the numbers of people seeking such role hasn't experienced a similar fall in numbers ?

I mean obviously there will be other factors, the economic crisis for one, but is it possible that the demand (admin jobs) and the supply (people wanting that kind of job) is a very different ratio now when compared to the past ?

Maybe something comparable to when WP became a reality for firms and big typing pools shrank due to editability cutting the human hours needed to produce the same amount of work ?

According to this page, the hourly rate for a 17.5k job is actually less than the London living wage of £9.15ph.

www.icalculator.info/tax_calculation/17500.htmlhtml

If anyone is looking for this kind of role in Birmingham City Centre, PM me! I need you ...

My first salary was in 1986 in the Home Counties and I got paid £4800pa for a 40hr week as a graphics designer. Those were the days of high wages, eh? I think that was the year cashpoint machines began appearing outside banks.