Religion/brainwash and kids

[EstRusMum]

So I just had a knock on the door and behind it there were a man and about 10 year old boy. Guess what? Boy starts talking to me about god. Jehova fucking witnesses!!! I cannot close the door in the boy's face and I feel sorry for him, as he is clearly nervous. Eventually I brought an excuse that I can't stand for too long, being 37 weeks pregnant, so they left. Before leaving man opened his mouth finally and said: read the website, blah-blah-blah(usual BS).
Is it the case to report to police/social services? What kind of parent would drag their child to knock on the door of the stranger?
AIBU to be angry about the matter?

"All religious parents bring up children in the religion"

We don't, choosing your religion for us is the same as choosing your own views of the world. There are some cultural (not religious things we do -easter eggs, Christmas trees/presents etc) but many secular people do them too.

alpha course (essentially a cult)

really? i did it years ago, it seemed very wishywashy and polite in a C of E kinda way.

"I know one where they get together and pretend to eat bits of a corpse."

Love it!!

All religions are cults.

I'm not a fan of the JW approach. I do not like being pestered in my own home.

Is it really any different from taking your child trick or treating?

Personally I don't agree with forcing a child into any particular religion, so I don't do it, but those that do are hardly abusing their children, and they probably think I'm shit for not giving my child a religion.

It's a very personal moral choice.

The fact that they knock on doors is neither here nor there

carryon90

Of course the poor child is being brainwashed.

Christopher Hitchens summed it up beautifully: "If religion was banned until children reached the age of reason, we would live in a very different world."

His remark is certainly true, but not in the way he intended. Either we would live in a world where governments were even more given to making empty gestures than they are now. Or - if religion was truly banned, which would mean banning parents from discussing it at home - we would live in a global police state.

His remark is so asinine that I wondered for a bit whether he'd actually said it. On reflection, he probably did. Christopher Hitchins was one of a large number of people who inhabit newspapers and literary circles who pride themselves on knowing a bit about everything, but not much about anything and who, in the name of free thinking, never fail to bring their unbendingly formulaic approach on whatever subject they choose to opine on.

Tomorrow I will go off to work as normal. Despite the fact that I am generally known to be a church goer, I doubt any of my colleagues think that I'm going to strap my body with gelignite and detonate myself at morning tea. They do not accuse me of child abuse because I take my children to church too. They do not even seem to find me particularly illogical despite my belief in a supernatural supreme being. In fact, I appear to be quite generally liked. I expect this is probably because they take me as I am and they don't judge me on the basis of the sort of opinions that seem to proliferate increasingly on places like Mumsnet.

It can't be much fun for JW going door to door - I bet they really hate it. They are doing it because that's what their religion teaches them is right. Presumably, they think there is a moral imperative to save others from eternal damnation.

I'm not religious and I don't agree with them at all, but I get that they are doing what they believe is the right thing. In their own way, I guess they are trying to help. It can be annoying, but I don't think they deserve abuse. I just smile and explain that I'm really not interested.

I have frends who are JWs. They love going door to door- they feel they are securing their place in heaven.

Snapes, I agree. If someone wants to tell me why their religion (or for that matter, moral outlook) is right, it's best to assume they think it's good for me, and are therefore motivated by altruism. That said, I also got the impression that every door knocked increase their credit at the bank spiritual. If so, they have a pretty cheap set of morals.

I probably get doorstepped once every 6 months by the JWs. I tell them thanks, but I'm Anglican and that's good enough for them. However, some years back I did invite them in because I was interested in debating their views. It was definitely a mistake. It was impossible to explore anything with them at all as they were so desperate to convert me t. Eventually I had to ask them to leave pretty firmly.

I have frends who are JWs. They love going door to door- they feel they are securing their place in heaven.

Oh good! So, it's nothing to do with saving anyone else's souls, just making sure they reserve their seat?!

Toadinthehole at least disagree with what he was actually talking about. Saying that in order for that situation to arise we'd have to live in a police state is missing the point.

If I said "suppose you were on a south sea island now and lying on the beach" you wouldn't say "ha! so I've been kidnapped have I?"

The claim is one that is pretty much common sense. That if - for any reason - children didn't learn about god until they were old enough to think for themselves, that religion wouldn't have the same hold.

The point being that the reason religious people and organisations are so obsessed with teaching them young is that it won't work right if they are old enough to think.

The evidence includes speeches by representatives of all the major churches. When they argue to keep compulsory worship they all claim that to not do so would damage the church and leave it with a rapidly decreasing membership.

Of course you can talk some adults into converting, but it's nowhere near as effective and imagine bringing it up to an 18yo ir even 14yo who'd never heard of it.

"ok so.. There was this man right and he was killed, but he was alive again and anyway he was never dead because he is in heaven the whole time and like you can't see him, but...

... and yeah if you do what I say you will go to heaven and be perfectly happy. if your mum and dad don't then they can just suffer for eternity. Don't worry you won't care about them any more once you're in heaven "

That's why they have to be told at the same age they are told about Santa.

Of course it would have to be a police state for his comment to make any sense. I, like just about all other parents, bring up my children according to the values I think are right. In my case that just happens to include adherence to the most widespread world religion.

Just how would this "banning" work?

Oh dear. You really can't discuss a hypothetical situation?

No way to talk about lying on a beach without you panicking "oh no! I've been kidnapped" and "oh god who is looking after the kids"?

I can't respond to your south sea island example because it doesn't make any sense. The comment as reported on this thread was that the world would be a different place if religion was banned until children reached the age of reason.

What does he mean by "banned"? For that matter, what does he mean by "age of reason"? Midnight on one's 18th birthday?

He's a pillock.

Toadinthehole, I believe there are conditions that make understanding hypothetical questions impossible. If that's the case you should just move on.

Yes, it is "when they don't make any sense". Note that I left off the words "to me" deliberately.

Well, I've got to go to bed, so perhaps it's best that I explain my view a bit more fully. You can move on if you wish. Others will read it. I am a practicing Christian. I pray every day. I go to church just about every Sunday. I've had my children christened and I take them to church with me. I talk with them about what it all means, as is appropriate, just the same as with various other issues. This is all because I want them to grow up to be people with a good set of values that will help them and upon which they can rely. It is a totally integrated part of family life.

What the comment states that religion should be banned until children reach the age of reason. There really are people (but only on the Internet, it seems) who genuinely seem to believe that God should not be mentioned to a child until they are old enough to form their own view on the matter. It's a very strange view to take. Firstly, because it draws a completely artificial distinction between a person's religion and the rest of that person, as if their religion was no different from a hobby, like gardening. In reality, it suggests that a person should shut off an integrated part of themselves from their children. That is going to be hurtful to the parent and confusing to the child. Secondly, it take a very strange view of how adults gain reason. It doesn't flick on overnight at a particular age. Both my children (9 and 6) are perfectly capable of reasoning at their level, and my view is that a person ought to continue to learn to reason better as they go through life and pick up experience.

Accordingly, did Hitchens really believe that parents who believe in God are capable (or willing) to studiously avoid any mention of God to their children? (I can just imagine it on Sunday mornings: "Mummy, where are you going"? "Err - um - nowhere"). It's not realistic. Perhaps that is why he talked of banning, which in its normal meaning means preventing a person from doing something. You don't use that term about things that people voluntarily don't do. He either expects parents to voluntarily refrain from any mention of God before their vulnerable little dears, or he wants them to be prevented from doing so (should they disagree). I believe that thoughtcrime is the appropriate concept here. Pretty ironic, given the history of the last 100 years.

He (hitchens) clearly is not advocating banning teaching religion to children. He is saying that if we didn't "get them when they are young" we would have less religious people.

As for the OP, people are rather hard on "the other". As I said earlier, it's annoying to have your doors knocked on but not nearly as annoying as having every third state school being C of E. JWs are a blip on my religious encroachment radar.

I think this discussion overlaps the religion in school assemblies debate. I want my children to learn about belief systems in the classroom, but not have to practice it. As for adults teaching it to their children in their own homes, there's many ways we screw our kids up that I would worry about first and as long as they're not transmitting abusive messages then fair enough, but there's the issue, some might feel that their god would want them to teach their children that it's bad to be gay, I would take a dim view of that but is it abusive, potentially I guess so, what if that child turns out to be gay. Also most people who do choose a religion as an adult overwhelmingly choose the 'wallpaper' religion of their culture which again shows how powerful the background effect is of religious assemblies etc.

good set of values that will help them

And you'd be unable to do that without religion? I reckon you could. Don't you see how slightly scary it sounds that you suggest you need to be told how to be a good person while many others are able to do it outside of religion just because it's good to be kind.

All religions rely on the brainwashing of children in order to continue existing
Actually lots of people find God much later in life.

They are the only Christians that follow the bible to the letter rather than just picking out the bits they want to do

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa

the jehovah witnesses are one of if no the only religion who dunno allow children to be baptised etc until they are at least 14 and old enough to make the decision for themselves.

Children as young as 8 have been allowed to be baptized. They will then be shunned by other witnesses if they later decide to leave the religion, whether that be age 10 or 20 or 75.

Having made the above comments, I have to point out that the children are not used as props, or to get people to listen. The parents are told/believe they are teaching the children how to be good witnesses, and are educating them in how to do the 'teaching and preaching' work. They truly think they are doing something good for and of benefit to the child.

But just because their beliefs are dearly held doesn't mean they should be protected from criticism. Sme Christians truly believe that being gay is not part of gods will and that when they tell others this that they are doing it out of love for them. Same with the blood thing that Witnesses have a problem with. By denying a child a transfusion they honestly believe that that is best. So you can see that just because someone's heart is in it, it doesn't make it sacrosanct and is dangerous for people to not challenge beliefs because they are dearly held by the believer.