to be exasperated by 4-year-olds' fulsome embrace of gender stereotypes

[leedy]

Rationally, I know that wanting to put things into categories ("for boys", "for girls") is ENTIRELY DEVELOPMENTALLY APPROPRIATE. Irrationally, though...

Family: watches Avatar, The Last Airbender (which is excellent)
DS1 (nearly 5): This is great. I'm glad it's not girly.
Me: I am a girl. I am enjoying this. Also it has a girl in it, being really brave and stuff. I would have really liked this when I was a little girl.
DS: But it's not for girls. Because it doesn't have princesses in it.
Me: head explodes

Anyone else? Just me? awaits being told that liking princesses is genetic and I cannot FIGHT NATURE

I don't know why some parents don't just get off their kids backs..childhood phases go so fast just enjoy it, and let them enjoy it too. So..if your DD loves dolls and your DS loves bulldozer toys or some such..whats to do? Swing into "control mode" so you can shape them to be who you want them to be, and get off on lecturing relatives about giving "gender neutral presents" in the safe knowledge that because YOU are the parent, they are in some way a captive audience even if they don't really give a shit because, there you are..angsting about a phase that will pass before you know it. Girls and boys are not the same and there's zero sense into aiming to morph one into the other. That isn't to say ALL girls will love girly stuff but a lot of them will do..and of the zillion threads Ive seen about this Ive yet to see 1 solid reason stating exactly why this will be bad for their development. Everybody conforms in some way don't they? Or some would send their DS's to school in a skirt. Leave kids alone fgs they've enough to contend with in this world..as do parents as long as they're well and happy then, learn to be content

How do small children square the pink for girls rule with Elsa's blue dress?

talking my lingo misteress, you go for it, totally absurd fussing over a natural stage in a child's life.

Well exactly so.

God I love pink!

Why is it fussing if we challenge small children when they come out with sexist comments but it's not fussing when you don't let a boy play with 'girls' toys?

We'll really what normal person cares a rats ass what toys kids play with.

As a mum for 25 years, cm and a TA really no one cares and kids just play.

And they establish their norms, not anyone else's, as they get to the pre teen stage.

Seriously angst over nothing. It does not matter.

the same thing, unclerory- why fuss about which toy? Are they getting play value out of it? If so let them get on with it.
You can challenge and fuss about their ideas of gender, but it is a complete waste of time, will most probably be counter productive and is a perfectly normal phase. Irritating but short- unless you make it an 'issue'.

My problem, is as a pp said, a girl wanting to be a dinosaur or a boy wanting to do ballet is asking to be bullied.

Instead of saying, no Jimmy, you can't wear your frozen dress because you'll get teased by your "friends", we teach kids that if Suzy wants to dress as a dinosaur that's perfectly fine.

It's acceptable victim blaming if a child goes against gender stereotype. We wouldn't allow it in any other circumstance, so why is it ok here?

It is problematic because it encourages them to see the opposite sex as "other" which is basically the root of all sexism. Of course they're not seriously sexist at four years of age, and yes they grow out of seeing things in that very rigid way but those seeds are being planted, that kind of conditioning is going in. In the pre-teen stage, they get the next level: Celebrity and self-image obsessions for girls, violent video games and risk-taking behaviour for boys. Today, a pre-teen child is highly likely to come across porn with the very clear gender split which is present in the kind of porn that a 12 year old with only a basic grasp on sexuality is likely to come across by typing words into an internet search engine.

Of course you shouldn't berate four year olds for it or try to force them to engage with the opposite gender stereotype or try to make it into an "issue" but it's naive to say it's just a phase and they grow out of it. It's laying the foundations for believing that men and women are so inherently different that all kinds of gender based damaging myths are believable.

That said there's not a whole lot you can do. But understanding it helps, because you can make small changes like modifying your language. Pointing small things out to make them think without preaching. Thinking about the gender stereotypes you offer as parents. Lots of stuff.

Bertie totally take your point.

I think it's just best to bring your kids up to respect their choices and respect other people's choices. Respect their bodies and respect other people's bodies.

Be kind, be nice. And be who you want to be but never hurt anyone else.

Men and women are different, people are different. Embrace accept, enjoy.

No, I don't actually believe that 4-year olds simply make their own choices, based on their nature, and are not the least bit affected by the multi-billion dollar advertising industry telling them what they are supposed to play with.
There is no need for gendered toys and books, but it's getting worse and worse. And of course it limits children, if they believe that half the toy shop is 'not allowed' for them.

Not to mention that all interesting science and building toys are marketed as 'for boys' - when I was growing up, Lego was just Lego. Now it's real Lego for boys and pink lego for girls. With cupcakes.

Interesting piece of research: researchers at Oregon State University and University of California surveyed 37 girls and found that after just 5 minutes of playing with Barbie, the girls seemed far less ambitious than girls that had played with Mrs. Potato Head. The girls, aged 4-7, were shown photos of ten occupations and asked whether they could see themselves doing that job, or whether it was a job for a boy. The girls that had played with the Barbie said that far fewer occupations were available to them then were available to boys.

Interesting article confirming that I'm not imagining it and toys are getting much, much more gendered: www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/12/toys-are-more-divided-by-gender-now-than-they-were-50-years-ago/383556/

kids should be able to choose they're own preferences for toys etc, stuff the p.c crap and get a life in the real world

They should - but most of them are making choices influenced by all the gender stereotyping from toy marketing, rather than truly free choices.

the same thing, unclerory- why fuss about which toy? Are they getting play value out of it? If so let them get on with it.

You are completely missing the point of what I said, or creating a strawman that you think you can knock down. Look at it again and understand that good toys for children aren't gendered. Dolls are good toys and aren't gendered. Trainsets are good toys and aren't gendered. I have never told my children not to play with something and I never said I did. However, when my 6 year old tells me her friend says I can't be a scientist because I'm a woman then yes, I am going to tell her her friend is talking rubbish.

Of course you tell them they are talking rubbish if tney are!
However you need some jokey one liner. Labouring the point tends to be counter productive.

I am with whatsthewhatsthebody - sensible advice.

some of the posters on here come across as a bit controlling over this gender thing, kids should be allowed to enjoy their brief childhoods, god knows they go up quick enough, relax and enjoy your dcs and embrace every special stage.

I just find it sad and limiting their childhood experiences, if a child suddenly thinks they are no longer allowed to play with their favourite toy, watch cartoons they like or dress up as whatever character, because it's "for girls/boys".

Some people are missing the point. And those worrying about gender stereotypes aren't trying to control what their children play with! We a're ttrying to do the opposite to make sure they have CHOICE, all toys for all children. I dont want my kids feeling they can't play with stuff as they have the wrong genitals.

My elder two didn't go down the rigid gender stereotypes partly I think as we home schooled till age 6 and 9 And for many years didn't have a tv.

Ds3 has always gone against them, lovely fairies and pink and purple etc, he went off it for a bit but he turns ten next week and as well as Lego has also asked for a pink onsie.

Ds4 has gone through a phase of being more rigid about gender stereotypes but I am lucky that his big brothers will say not to be daft. 15 yr old ds1 has very long hair for eexample and they will pull little ones up in a friendly/jokey way. Ds2 (12) recently dressed up in a purple fairy costume for his little sisters 4th bday. She ia just going into a purple unicorn phase! But her fave thing are dinosaurs so will be I interesting to see how she navigates the gender stereotypes. I am not a fan of pink tbh, but I sucked it up for ds3 and am doing for her and we make sure there is balance and we will as parents speak out against gender stereotypes as we would racism or disabilism etc.

It can be hard as its so engrained, even I have caught myself saying to dd that she looks lovely and then kicked myself, I tend to say "you look funky" which is a compliment I give to all the madthings, and doesent focus on looks so much. And a tutu, leggings and Dino t shirt, her outfit of choice is indeed funky!

My 6 yo DS is very into categorising and sorting: lego bricks, teddies, gender stereotypes. We have lots of discussions about how toys/films/jobs etc can be for anyone who is interested. I'm a civil engineer Ffs!

Dd (3) on the other hand is currently sporting a rugby shirt and tutu and pushing Spider-Man around in a toy pram.

My dd is not into anything stereotypically 'girly' - loves her train set and car toys. Is very good at football. The only ones who have an issue with this are the older relatives who are trying to push Frozen and endless cutesie pink crap constantly. I'm awaiting another ton of stuff that she won't like for Christmas. I would like to be able to tie her hair back or put a clip or two in but she refuses. I'm going to have to work on this as she's starting school next year and they insist hair is tied back.

I think this says it all, pretty much: Lego ponytail

Toys are getting more gendered, so are clothes and even sweets (pink smartie tubes etc).

My dd isn't even 6 months yet, and it has started already. Someone said she couldn't have a particular baby toy because it was for boys.

I'm 26, so not that old myself and I played mostly with what would be considered nowadays 'boy toys' and not so much 'girl toys'. Back then however, they were just neutral toys and there wasn't anywhere near the amount of pressure and conditioning I know my own child will grow up with.

I readily encourage my DD to research and enjoy her interest in space and all things science but also her love of pink, sparkly, glittery stuff. She loves to have her nails painted and spends much of her free time in princess dress up. While I agree with some of what has been posted i don't understand why some have gone the other way in hating pink, sparkly stuff. This competive crap about whose daughter is least girls is depressing. It's like saying women are crap, you need to be like a typically stereotyped man/boy to be clever and interesting. If you're a stereotype girly girl you're stupid and worthless.