to ask how you, as a parent, feel about school shows?

[manicinsomniac]

I'm a performing arts teacher. I put on a wide range of shows every year, from informal class plays where they take their scripts on stage to a full scale musical with thousands of pounds worth of hired set and technical equipment.

Today, I have had two extremely vocal complaints.

One regarded the quality of some class plays performed earlier in the week. The parent felt that it was a long evening of very low quality drama that was hard to sit through. These particular shows followed a criteria of having a reasonable number of lines for every child and were cast by me saying 'put your hand up if you want a big part' etc. Everyone got the size of part they wanted. And yes, some of them were eye wateringly bad. But they were having fun, getting involved and learning.

The second complaint was about the big school musical and concerned a child in their last year of school not having a speaking part and never having had one in the past either (in the big musical that is. The child has had parts in smaller shows). The parent complained that it is always the same group of children in the big parts and that others would do just as well if they got the chance. Anyone who auditions for this show can be in it but I am very selective over the named roles. And yes, it is often the same children - because there are a good number of very talented children.

I feel like I can't win. I put everything into both types of shows and the inclusive ones get slated for being poor quality and the very competitive, high quality gets slated for not being inclusive enough!!!

What would you prefer to see as a parent -
a lower quality show that shares the parts around
or
a higher quality show that chooses the best for the parts?

Do you value and enjoy the show itself or just want to see you child on the stage?

Ds1 just spent an hour a day for 6 weeks practising his christmas show. He was a villager. He was in the background of one song.

The same confidant brats are chosen every single time. The teacher can't even be arsed to let shy children have a go because she has decided they are shy and has put them in their box where in her eyes they will remain forever.

She is a shit teacher because she doesn't want to teach she just wants an easy life. Myself and 15 other parents have requested if it is the same next year our children are excused from all the practice sessions and actually taught something.

We have been assured they will be more inclusive. Ds knows every single line and has been in tears about not being involved and having to just sit still for an hour a day.

Sorry for the rant, the thread hit a nerve!

I think it needs to be both (and it sounds like you do the high quality one at the end of year) but I'm not sure why the lower quality one needs to be dreadful. Our infants productions have been reasonably good, and everyone has had a speaking part. I don't mean professional quality, but you can hear every line and the children almost all hit their marks well and get their cues, a few are really quite good.

Maybe there isn't really the rehearsal time for what you're trying to do? Can you rope in any volunteer parents to help with practicing? If it was really dire I would wonder about the value of it for the children. I was in a totally dire play in Guides when I was about 11. We were terrible. To varying extents we had cobbled-together, half-hearted costumes (or none in one case); we didn't know our lines (or understand them in some cases); a lot of cues were missed; and at the end we realised we'd missed out most of a scene that was semi-crucial to the plot.

It was not a great experience for us, certanly we got no pride or sense of achievement out of it, it was just embarrassing. My mother came to watch and clapped and congratulated me immediately after. But it was never mentioned again, and she did not go on to tell my relatives, in front of me, how I'd been brilliant as she did with everything else she came to watch. Hopefully yours wasn't as dreadful as that, but I think there's a lot to be said for trying to find a production that is suitable for the skill/dedication of your performers.

"confidant brats" ??

I think doing both a high quality "competitive" production and more inclusive, less um polished ones is the right way to go.

Your approach sounds perfect to me. My kids have been v lucky - lots of assemblies where they all take part and bigger shows where the best get the parts (not mine!) - I agree w sports team analogy - the best kids should get their chance to show what they are about. And the kids w smaller parts can learn from them. You sound great to me.

At primary everyone should have a chance. At secondary go for talent - the real world wants people who perform in every sense of the word in every line of work.

This

OP, I think your approach is perfect.

Inclusive, short plays where everyone gets a go, but also big school shows where talented actors and musicians have the big parts.

At primary level I agree everyone who wants a go should get one. At secondary children should be able to follow their talents whether that is acting, music, sport or chess.

This is an awful statement to make, so many children are talented in their own way. Performances do not need to be perfect.

Cos everyone is a special little precious snowflake?

Fuck that.

Secondary school performances should be cast according to who will be best doing the part. No question. And best doing the part not be 'best at acting' but would also include best at turning up and learning lines etc.

Should I have got a chance to represent my school at 100m just because I wanted to? No. Cos I'm a shit sprinter and no amount of keenness changed that. We can't all represent the school at everything.

So why don't parents feel the same inclusive attitude should be attributed to the football/netball /swimming team? If it was the "crap but wants to have a go child who feels left out so let's give him a chance in the key position " who loses the game , wouldn't those same parents be saying but my child is committed to the sport and plays outside of school and this child is dragging the team down.
I have always felt those less sporty children who pursue drama/dance/singing outside of school get a very unfair rap when it comes to selection for school performances as many accept they wouldn't expect to be considered good enough for school sports teams.

So why don't parents feel the same inclusive attitude should be attributed to the football/netball /swimming team?

Actually, I think that is exactly the way that sports should be handled for the under-12 crowd. Playing football or playing a part in a school play should be all about the experience for young children. So much learning can occur that has nothing to do with winning a game or turning out a slightly better performance.

I'm definitely of the opinion that all children should have the chance to participate in school productions during their primary years. By secondary school, I can understand holding auditions, etc.

Both. My middle son is in professional shows & I like him to have the opportunity to do auditioned for high quality amateur shows as well. And inclusive. He takes part in both types & gets dufferent things from both.

My youngest is no actor but he got a lot from having lots of lines to learn in his recent nativity - it really boosted his confidence (but hard at times when you have a performing brother).

Do parents understand the difference? Ds2's inclusive group has an audition only smaller group as well & it's made clear it's competitive.

You're always going to get whingers but as someone with a non-sporty child (never picked for teams) whose talents lie in the performing arts I appreciate him having opportunities to show what he can do well - as well as more inclusive shows.

So why don't parents feel the same inclusive attitude should be attributed to the football/netball /swimming team?

It should be exactly the same for sports. Do you really think it matters if the primary school football team is the bestest, greatest ever and they lost a game because of little not-so-talented Johnny? I'd much rather all kids who wanted to were given a chance to kick a ball around and learn what it's like to play in a team. Primary school activities are for learning and having fun.

As for 'the same confident brats' - ds2 is very much NOT confident - except on stage. That's another reason to give some kids the chance to show what they're good at.

This is an awful statement to make, so many children are talented in their own way. Performances do not need to be perfect.

*Cos everyone is a special little precious snowflake?

Fuck that.

Secondary school performances should be cast according to who will be best doing the part. No question. And best doing the part not be 'best at acting' but would also include best at turning up and learning lines etc.

Should I have got a chance to represent my school at 100m just because I wanted to? No. Cos I'm a shit sprinter and no amount of keenness changed that. We can't all represent the school at everything.*

No-one mentioned a "precious little snowflake" however EVERY child should be included, not just the "talented" children. I never mentioned sport. I am talking about a school show! Get your facts right before quoting me.

We've have just come back from ours, an all singing-all dancing nativity which managed to include all 40 kids in the school, from tiny 4 year olds to the year 6s. Words and music all written by the teachers. Kids all word perfect...

TBH you ask what I feel about school shows, well I feel nothing less than awe that the teachers manage to pull something like that off! And joy and delight watching them all acting so confidently and singing their little hearts out, from the littlies to the big year 6 boys.

When we were at primary we did NOTHING like that at all. No chance to experience performing or acting or singing or anything.

Ds3's school is very good at putting together inclusive but not excruciating shows. Lots of parts & eg good singers get solos but a few lines or s verse so they're shared around as well. This year the drama group got the larger parts (entirely inclusive) which preSumably gave lots of extra rehearsal times.

I think the main thing for inclusive shows is casting kids in parts where they have a chance of remembering lines. No-one cares how lines are delivered but lots of prompting is hard to listen to!

I wish sport was more inclusive - or actually the same as you're trying to do - inclusive fun stuff & more elite. DS2 loves football for example but isn't good at it & his opportunities for playing seem to be decreasing.

If it's done during class time it needs to be inclusive. Afterschool should be on merit for leads with an inclusive chorus where possible.

Just as PE includes all but teams pick the best.

Agree with those who say all primary productions should be inclusive, but that secondary children who are talented in the performing arts need a chance to work with other equally talented children in order to push and challenge themselves and be able to show what they're capable of.

Parents complain if their child is good at maths but the teacher expects them to do the same work as other less able children which they find boring, and they are told on here that the teacher should be stretching them. Why shouldn't that apply to children whose talents lie in the performing arts, why should they be expected to always work to a lower level to appease the less able children (or more accurately their parents)?

manicinsomniac, it sounds to me like you've managed to pull off a good compromise, so that they less able but keen kids get a chance to have fun, and the talented kids get to hone their talent.

Fabulous - I don't know if you do but it feels like you think I put on one show a year with 10-20 children in it and exclude everyone else from my entire department. I certainly don't do that. I put on 14 shows a year - 3 class plays for Y5,6,7 and 8, a Spring Term Musical and a Senior Play in the Summer. Everyone has to be involved in a class play, like it or not, and children choose the size of their part. Anyone who wants a big part gets one. So any child can have large parts 4 times in their school career if they so wish. The other two plays are opt in but anyone who auditions gets to take part, no exceptions. The choruses have plenty of singing and dancing to do and every child gets to be in at least 2 scenes. There is no primary school style choir or sitting on benches at the sides.

And I don't understand why you keep talking about disabilities and SEN. Those things are fairly irrelevant to talent. We have disabled/SEN children who are fantastic on stage and others who are not, just the same as NT children. I've already mentioned our genuinely excellent Capt Von Trapp who had autism. We also had a large role in the musical a couple of years ago who had to have his script made into an audio tape because he could not read at all. At age 13. Many of our lower ability children are great on stage. It gives them a way to express themselves that doesn't require writing and textbooks and they go for it. But, to get a lead part in the two competitive shows, they must still be good. Otherwise, they can have other roles in the shows.

I get that you don't agree with that view but do feel you're being a little unfair in saying things like this:
If the OP cannot cast a show other than the same children year after year who have "talent" then she should move to a dedicated performing arts school.

And how on earth would you achieve this:

Every child has the right to inclusion and to have a lead in a school show.

Short of doing 20 plays per year group per year I'm not sure how that could work!

I have just come home from a school pantomime. It's all very well giving everyone a part but it was a treat when anyone with talent and enthusiasm came on stage. One or two you could barely hear and some were amazing. They had a different cast yesterday and had some talented children in it. I have no doubt that if they had all the good ones in one cast that the show would have been excellent. We were told that some of the staff were saying that it was the first time they had heard some of the children speaking so confidently but what we noticed was that the children were having a ball and at the end were beaming from ear to ear. Seeing them so happy it didn't really matter that it wasn't perfect.

I know how hard you have worked, those complaining parents are clueless.

Every child having a lead part is a bonkers idea. There are plenty of children who don't want lead parts for starters.

Thanks to those that think the balance sounds right, regardless of whether or not you enjoy the shows!

I think it is interesting that for team sports the most talented get chosen but for performances everyone gets a part - that does not sit right with me

I think your approach is fine.

I recently attended a 'lessor quality' dance show. All the classes got to do two dances. The seniors were great, the intermediates were pretty good, and the smallies were so cute. The choreography allowed each child at least a quick turn in the front row. So when we buy the video, we will be able to spot our little darlings for at least a second or two. DD2 is a good dancer, she was at the front quite a bit, but I REALLY liked that the dance teacher gave all the kids a turn at the front.

The teachers worked hard on the show. But almost all the work was done in dance class. So no crazy rehearsal schedule. There were little mistakes, and it wasn't as polished as it would have been with more rehearsing.

All the mommies, daddies, grannies, aunties, etc who were there seem to enjoy it. And the children participating LOVED it. (However, DH and DD1 who both sat through it last year, refused to go this year.)

DD1 was singing in a show last year, which was a 'higher quality' show. The best parts went to the best performers, and via an audition process.

That show was much more polished. And did involve a crazy rehearsal schedule... DH had no problem attending this show, and Granny and cousins were invited too.

Ideally, the children get the chance to do both type of shows.

OP . your mix of shows sounds about right for a secondary school.

Do you have a student technicians group as well? Many years ago I had to perform in GCSE class plays but my choice in after school/ whole school auditioned productions was stage management and I was expected to do it well . 25 years on I still work in technical theatre. I still use stuff I learnt at school as a 15 yr old.