To reconsider my feelings re. Death penalty.

[FoxgloveFairy]

Just read a story about a young guy in the US who broke into a house and, not finding anything to steal, decided to rape the female occupant. A 101 year old woman. Not a string-em-up advocate, but just looking at the arrogant grin on this young man's face in court, I feel right now I could be persuaded.

No. Really cannot be arsed to argue with an intellectual gnat. No autocorrect required.

you are talking purely based on your emotions, but if you found your child dead, I strongly suspect you would all of a sudden forget about your hypothetical ethical structure you have built for yourself

Not my child, but my brother was murdered. I didnt want his murderer killed, neither did my parents or my siblings. We did want him jailed, we did want him punished, but killing him would not have bought my brother back, it would have just put another family through what we were going through. And we wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Eve - That division in society is exactly where the argument lies. you argue for one side, I argue the other. My point is, society chooses where the balance lies, and we get the number crimes to fit. If we make a change, we see a change in offending. As Dawn has pointed out for example, if we increase education we see a corresponding decrease in crime, therefor it stands to reason that if we decrease education, we see a corresponding increase in crime. That is just one single influencing factor, but society gets to choose how much or how little education is given, and correspondingly, how much or how little crime it wants in the community as a result.

Likewise, we get to choose how many rapists and murderers we release back into the community, and our exposure to reoffending. Dawn has also already pointed out tirelessly that we get to choose how many reoffend by either increasing or decreasing education in prisons. Nevertheless, we as a society make that determination and control the level of reoffending in our society. Same goes for how many convicted rapists and murderers we let into our country. Society gets to choose. We control all aspects of society that determine our rape and murder rate, and we select how many we want vs. how much resource we are willing to expend keeping it at that level.

I personally believe capital punishment ends a persons life. Dawn seems to be under the delusion that 100 dead murderers may go on to reoffend anyways, but I suspect they wont. And if they do, at least we have discovered a new branch of science.

As regards your brother, I can only imagine how hard it must have been, and how courageous and considerate your family were in being able to care for the feelings of the perpetrators family at such a time. I honestly don't think I could be so compassionate, and I commend you for it.

Darcey - Like I said above, this is the crux of the debate that has rumbled in the UK for centuries. Some people cannot find it within themselves to forgive the murder of their child/mother etc, while others can. That is the balancing act society chooses to use to control the crime rate in the UK, and it is as good as any other. Whilst I may argue fervently for a return to capital punishment, not on the basis of deterrent (as Dawn so adamantly continues to attribute to me), but on grounds that it eliminates their chance to reoffend, and gives a greater degree of justice to those who feel the need for such; I do accept that it is the choice of society as a whole to decide where that live is drawn, which measures to use to increase or decrease offending, and how much murder/rape/child abuse it is willing to 'rehabilitate'.

My head says that the death penalty is wrong for reasons already cited here by other posters. However sometimes you hear of cases so barbaric that a prison sentence just doesn't feel enough.

I would like to see much harsher conditions for people who commit terrible crimes. The loss of liberty isn't sufficient for some people in my opinion.

Dawn - I still see nothing from you but hyperbole and rhetoric. No lucid or constructive argument other than continued assertion that death is not a deterrent (a position I have never disagreed with, but an assumption you have made).

As regards you placing the racism card, firstly, do you have any clue what 'racism' means, and secondly, 'hurdygurdy' is no more 'racist' than 'bagpipe' or 'morris'. It is not a 'racial slur', nor is it bigoted in any way. It is at best MN over-reacting to your own personal agenda to find a way of supporting your failing argument, and at worst, a sign of your own vitriolic hunt for anything you can hang the race card on.

I realise people here cannot read the original post.

FYI, I am Scottish, and I see no 'racism' in "Mr Bagpipe" whatsoever. He is an Australian bagpipe maker residing in a small village in Scotland, and happens to be one of the most accomplished private craftsmen in his fields, anywhere in the world. A bit annoying to live next to perhaps, but a thoroughly decent chap.

Now, if you, or MN, believe that this sort of epithet contravenes MNs rules, you could at least have the temerity to say so directly instead of hiding behind ambiguity and subjectivity. And if it is the case that a name is 'too un-PC' for the forum, maybe ban people from Breast, Dildo and Shitterton from talking about their homes while you're at it.

I presume MN will delete this post when Dawn complains to them about me mentioning a Scottish businessman, or some vaguely rude town names.

The main issue for me, with regards to Capital punishment for murder is where do you draw the line?

If a Bob shoots Fred in the heart then the state should kill Bob. Bob is a murderer.

But if Fred stole Bobs life savings leaving Bob destitute, is Bob still a murderer?
If Fred was killed breaking into Bobs house, is Bob still a murderer?
If Fred raped Bobs wife, is Bob still a murderer?
If Fred abused Bobs child, is Bob still a murderer?
If Bob was Fred's life partner and Fred was terminally ill, is Bob still a murderer?

If the penalty for killing is killing, then Bob should die in every scenario.

But would Bob be likely to ever kill again in any of the above scenarios? Is he a danger to the general public?

I'd rather Bob was in prison, for life if necessary, than dead. We can talk about 'degrees' of murder - but dead is still dead.

The person that killed my brother didn't mean to kill him, but he's just as dead. His wife was just as bereved. His kids were just as fatherless. It doesn't hurt any less, and capital punishment wouldn't have made it any less real or less hard.

Marjorie - I am sure other posters will be on here to point out that anything other than love and understanding doesn't work. If you give them the love they crave, they will not be naughty anymore. You have to look past the little baby in the woodchipper, and see the real person hurting inside. Only then can you heal them.

Eve - Those are exactly the decisions society would have to decide upon. To my mind, stabbing a person you discover raping your child is not the same as stabbing a person you get into a fight with outside a pub. Society has to choose and whilst we get to debate these issues, we must all defer to society's collective judgement.

I have no problem with working class social mores, I have been known to deploy the cunt word frequently. A number of times over this weekend in fact.
I am a lecturer. When I posit a theory I use facts to back it up. That is my job.
I'm not taking any further part in this discussion. You are doing a grand job of showing yourself up without my help.

Dawn - Reframing the questions asked is a political move. it is misdirection (It is what most people say they cannot tolerate in politics), and we see it every time you allege I have argue that I believe something (which I do not) as a means of deflecting the points made back to the fact that education rehabilitated prisoners; a fact that no-one here has ever contested or disagreed with. Well done.

You are, as has already been pointed out, playing politics with the discussion, not entertaining lucid and coherent dialogue.

Personally I have found writtenguarantee, Icimoi and DarceyBustle to name but a few, to have more than adequately put there points of view forward and challenged my own, without the need for politics and complaints of racism. You don't know me, my background, or my environment, and to allege racism and complain about it over reference to a musical instrument is quite definitely political showmanship on your part.

You have more than once told us you would refrain, but you have not yet done so, Dawn.

I'm not sure that backing up was done where statistics were concerned. The argument it can be done properly is fairly unqualified. If you don't mind me saying so.

I have no problem with working class social mores - Is this you trying to say that a person is likely to be working class because they believe in capital punishment, and that only the middle classes are enlightened enough to be compassionate about punishing a criminal? You are indeed a superior being. How very bigoted of you.

Dora - She was talking about 'theoretical' politically motivated facts, not actual facts in the dictionary sense of the word. I don't think you or I would disagree that reoffending is reduced by education and cuddles, but the quantum of that reduction is not supported by evidence, and we know that the quantity of dead people committing crimes is zero.

The middle classes are more likely to have studied pages of sophistry on the subject, elephants, and be able to recite them.

I think that contrary arguments are more attractive to intellectuals because pro arguments are a bit limited. You take a murderer and hang them. That's it, really.

If you like reading or writing columns, then you need something longer.

If murderers were permanently imprisoned and were completely self financing, then there would be no reason to hang them.

Spot on Dora.

But as the academics say, making in prison someone work is 'slavery'.

No. It's called 'punishment'. 40 years hard labour for raping a child or killing its' mother is not 'slavery', it is punishment.

Unless of course you are an academic, in which case it is time that could be better spend reading books, finding yourself, and sharing your experience. We all know potato painting helps rapists release their built up tension, but a life working is a mine would benefit society a whole lot more outside of the world of 'theoretical' academia.

I've seen a prison workers have no unions therefore it's slavery arguments. People don't need to agree with those. But, I've never seen an it's slavery, full stop argument. Is there one?

and we get the number crimes to fit.

you keep asserting this, and it's just plain false. show us credible studies that the DP reduces crime.

I don't think you mean reduces. I think you mean deters. If you kill all criminals then logic alone points to a reduction in crime! You don't need to study it!

If murderers were permanently imprisoned and were completely self financing, then there would be no reason to hang them.

How can they possibly be self financing when they are in prison? They can't get jobs. There is no possibility they will be able to pay for their incarceration. Forced labour won't touch it.

No. It's called 'punishment'. 40 years hard labour for raping a child or killing its' mother is not 'slavery', it is punishment.

Open any dictionary. You will see that forced work without proper remuneration is called slavery. it's undeniably slavery. it's clear that you think it can be used as punishment, but call it what it is. It's without a doubt slavery.

Dead people can't commit crimes. It's no deterrent. But, it is a solution.

I don't think you mean reduces. I think you mean deters. If you kill all criminals then logic alone points to a reduction in crime! You don't need to study it!

I meant reduces because that's what it appears you and elephantspoo think. Has it been shown it either reduces or deters crime? I don't think so.

No, that's not at all what logic says. Take for example the US. it executes a very small percentage of criminals, most of whom would never see the light of day anyway.