To reconsider my feelings re. Death penalty.

[FoxgloveFairy]

Just read a story about a young guy in the US who broke into a house and, not finding anything to steal, decided to rape the female occupant. A 101 year old woman. Not a string-em-up advocate, but just looking at the arrogant grin on this young man's face in court, I feel right now I could be persuaded.

It isn't about american culture and violence and disney movies - all american culture and movies are now available worldwide. I live in the US and no one I know is infatuated with violence.

Japanese anime and culture is available world wide, and Americans eat that shit right up. We are not on our way of adopting an Asian culture. Assuming because you do a few American things and watch a few movies, it would influence your country's entire culture is just silly. We love Dr. Who and Sherlock over here too, I don't see people acting British.

Everything you just said about gun lobbying, silencing doctors, etc.. IS part of our culture's infatuation with violence. Our movies are a reflection of our culture, not the cause of it. You may not know people that sit there going "Oh man! I hope someone dies in this movie". That is not what I'm talking about. Our culture as a whole loves violence. If this were not the case, Americans would be outraged by the NRA, but we're not.

Our country was founded on a war that we won.

Look at American football or even Hockey. Now look at your sports and how gentle they are in comparison.

The number one form of suicide is shooting yourself in the head. We have pharmaceuticals and pills in easy access to over dose in your sleep. Yet, people choose the most grotesque way to do it.

We have more police brutality, our riots are more destructive, we're the first to jump into war and send out our troops. We have a death penalty still and people refuse to vote it away. American culture is so saturated with violence, it's normalized.

It goes way beyond NRA being corrupt and greedy.

As a side note, Americans are all very much aware of children accidentally shooting themselves. It's constantly in the news. If you can't figure out that having guns that aren't safe with small children, you're an idiot. The problem is the "it can't happen to me" attitude.

I just read you live in US, just switch it from your to UK's or whatever. You get the point.

Americans are all very much aware of children accidentally shooting themselves. It's constantly in the news. If you can't figure out that having guns that aren't safe with small children, you're an idiot. The problem is the "it can't happen to me" attitude

This is an astonishing statement. Astonishingly stupid. From this statement alone I think you are an NRA groupie who cares nothing for safety of children and only for the gun lobby.

Most people should really be able to figure out that babies should be in car seats and people should wear seat belts. But we still legislate for them.

But the NRA is styming every law that attempts to legislate for gun control - including allowing paediatricans to ask if there are guns in the home.

And by the way, I am an American and I am very very much aware of what is happening in my country.

This is an astonishing statement. Astonishingly stupid. From this statement alone I think you are an NRA groupie who cares nothing for safety of children and only for the gun lobby.

Right, because obviously I meant let the fuckers blow their brains out. I said Americans are indeed aware that kids and guns don't mix. I didn't say they all follow that. They all have a "it won't happen to me" attitude.

Or are you astonishingly stupid enough to think you're the only American aware of what goes on in their own country?

I would never let my children watch Saw.

*Does anyone here believe that removal of guns from American society will have no effect on the elimination of school massacres?

Guns kill people.
Pens misspell words.
Keyboards make stupid MN posts.
Spoons make people fat.

Let's ban them all*

This is one of the most monumentally stupid comments I've ever read. I didn't know pens, keyboards or spoons were deadly weapons .

And as for people choosing shooting themselves in the head as suicide rather than an overdose because it's more grotesque, really???

They choose it because it's much much quicker way to die, overdosing takes hours to die.

Come on now

@Canyouforgiveher - You live in a country that sanctions murder by decree with no right to trial, not representation, no oversight, and who take it upon themselves to decree that they have the right to kill anyone they choose and where in the world at any time with no cause, no judge, no jury. Yes. I can see how you think you are right when your country values life so lowly.

@Balbasaur - You're absolutely right. There is no evident of any correlation between guns and gun crime. It is all merely political smoke and mirrors. Just as there is no evidence between smoking and death from smoking related illness, and no relationship between contaminants in food and death from contaminants in food. My daughter does that. She hides behind her hands and believes that the real world doesn't exist because she can stop herself from seeing it.

@FluffyMcnuffy - So your contention is that because is that because a pen misspells a word or a spoon helps someone become fat, they should be banned, because they are in some way representative of the volume of guns killing people or the volume of rapists in our countries? That really is a mature outlook on society.

Bottom line is the Americans have as many school massacres as they want. They have a system that will tolerate a given quantity of dead children, and until America discovers how many dead children they are not willing to take, they will continue to have as many as they want. That's a collective 'they' meaning the nation, not any specific group BTW.

I am opposed to the death penalty and I can't see that changing. No amount of emotive and terrible crimes will make me feel the state has the right to take a life

Also stop acting like DNA is the only evidence u need. DNA simply shows a person was at some time present or has sex .., not a crime the court needs to prove a crime took place and the defendant was involved ...DNA doesn't do this

I agree, Fluffy - ludicrous analogy. Guns are designed to kill / maim people; & while murderers can & do find other ways to kill, guns make it much, much easier, particularly to kill several people in a short time.

Spoons don't make it easier / faster to get fat; pens don't make it more likely you'll misspell something; keyboards don't predispose you to write bollocks. I'm astonished at how often this type of shit analogy is repeated. People who use it should be forced to do a course in logic / reasoning.

Death would be an easy escape, prison guards turn a blind eye to what happens to people like him in prison so he will get his comeuppance.

There have been endless polls and studies which show that the death penalty is hugely popular with voters and overwhelmingly not-so with politicians. In most places it has been abandoned too and is contrary to various bits of HR legislation.

I'm really in about eight minds about it, especially on its wider social affects, eg in the US/race/unfairness. And, in some 3 World countries against women, etc. I'm not sure if it's the penalty in those cases that I oppose, or the method in which it's enforced. There seem to be coincidences between its use and all kinds of civil violations, which liberals have been citing for centuries. I rather suspect that the liberals (with small l) are right. I can't help feeling some longing for the practise, though, in certain cases.

@elephantspoo

I was quoting another poster and pointing out how ridiculous that analogy was really not that hard to grasp if you read my post, so I don't think there is any need to direct your rudeness at me.

I don't mean to derail the thread but to further address the issue of gun laws, the vast majority of US serial killers do not shoot their victims (they use strangulation, stabbing etc).

I would argue that if guns weren't so common place then a lot of "opportunity" murders (such as shooting during a robbery) would be avoided. The robber (usually) didn't set out to shoot the house owner and if he hadn't bern carrying a gun I think it's less likely he would have committed murder.

I've just read your latest post again @elephantspoo and your comment about soldiers is extremely offensive. Yes I aknowledge that some of that has happened but it is an overwhelming minority. Most soldiers to not ferry children to paedophiles let me assure you that . It's like saying all Catholic priests are paedophiles, extremely offensive.

give the guy a hug, lock him up for three years, with SkyTV, Xbox, free room and board

When I'm dictator, every person who makes this sort of pronouncement will be sentenced to spend a year in precisely the custodial conditions that are normally imposed for the crime being discussed. In this case, that would be a year sharing a cell with a couple of thugs and an open toilet; locked up 20 hours a day; lying awake at night listening to people calling shouting, screaming, swearing, threatening; no access to books; being scared whenever you go to showers; having your food spat in and worse; and definitely no hugs. And then they should be asked if they still think that custody is such a soft option.

Mark bridger, Ian Huntley, Roy Whiting - I have searched my hippy heart and cannot find an ounce of forgiveness for these monsters and honestly think what is the point in allowing them to live. It is impossible to rehabilitate paedophiles and the ones who murder as well are just beyond all comprehension. I wouldn't cry if the death penalty was re-instated in this country for these crimes.

The only moment I searched myself was while reading about a radio show that did a spoof radio broadcast which involved an item saying that Ian Huntley was dead. Apparently police had to go to his mum's house to tell her it was a hoax and her son was not in fact dead. And then I realised that it is quite likely there are people out there who are parents of murdering paedophiles who maybe even still love their child and can still forgive them anything, and so for those individuals I can summon up just enough humanity to see why the death penalty is not necessarily something a civilised society should support.

Elephants.
Your A level philosophy needs a little more research and a lot less rant.
Sorry.
...than it is for us to be tasking our soldiers with ferrying children to paedophiles Really?

As for your strawman arguments comparing war with rape, they too are not working, war is a complete misrepresentation of the death penalty. War is not state sanctioned killing of those found to be criminals.

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

You're absolutely right. There is no evident of any correlation between guns and gun crime. It is all merely political smoke and mirrors. Just as there is no evidence between smoking and death from smoking related illness, and no relationship between contaminants in food and death from contaminants in food. My daughter does that. She hides behind her hands and believes that the real world doesn't exist because she can stop herself from seeing it.

Are you saying cigarettes smoke themselves?

Come now, if we're going to blame objects instead of people for crimes, let's blame a spoon. As obesity causes the most deaths, costs hospitals the most money, and has a higher chance of permanently disabling someone than a gun shot wound.

Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. They do not have the gun problems America has. The problem is not the guns.

It's the people, for all the above stated reasons.

Just heard about another high member of government in China being sentenced to death for corruption, though it will probably be commuted to life imprisonment. Now that I don't have any qualms about.

The swiss have high gun ownership as part of their military service. However as they are not allowed to have ammo (yes seriously this is how it works) it's quite different to the US free for all.

An interesting fac for this debate: in a typical year, more people are shot fatally by US police than are murdered by anyone (all methods not just shootings) in the UK.

The swiss have high gun ownership as part of their military service. However as they are not allowed to have ammo (yes seriously this is how it works) it's quite different to the US free for all.

Yeah, some states are trying to limit ammo. It's just at this point, unless there's a giant sweeping reform, any gun law put into effect is just penalizing honest people, while doing nothing to deter criminals. It's just putting a band aid on a dam that's ready to burst.

Not to mention you can just travel to a different state with separate laws and buy whatever you need. It's not like we have border patrols state to state.

An interesting fac for this debate: in a typical year, more people are shot fatally by US police than are murdered by anyone (all methods not just shootings) in the UK.

Well, to be fair on that, we have to go on per capita. We have 3 times the population as UK. So we also buy more bags of crisps a day than your total population.

Though, I would still think it's more considering your murder capita is only 1.

I'm not saying we don't have a problem with guns. We do. But banning guns or getting rid of them is an unrealistic pipe dream.

Hypothetically, if we were to suddenly say "Ok guys, no more guns"

1. No one would hand them in, gun enthusiasts and criminals alike. A few honest people might. But the majority wouldn't, because we have the right to bear arms.
2. There is no realistic way of collecting all the guns without going door to door and searching each house, because see number 1.
3. It would give rise to black market deals. Look at what happened during prohibition. It just gave crime circles a source of income and made them hard to stamp out.

It's not a black and white situation of "Oh, America needs to get rid of their guns". There are only a few states that are smaller than the size of the UK, a reform like this would cost an over whelming amount of our budget, when have other problems on our plate like health care, education systems, and generally taking care of our people. It's a multifaceted issue with no easy solution.

You make a valid point, heartisaspade
And if I am realistic, I don't honestly think the death penalty would deter the kind of murdering sickos I described in my previous post. Those crimes will continue to happen, death penalty or no death penalty.

Sadly.