to not be surprised that 1/3 of young people are in poverty and they are the poorest people in society

[fruitloop13]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-young-arethe-new-poor-sharp-increase-in-the-number-of-under25s-living-in-poverty-while-over65s-are-better-off-than-ever-9878722.html

Can't say I'm surprised at all. This isn't going to end well.

Just isn't right that they have the lowest income but are likely to have high outgoings.

I'd like to see a rebalance of the tax system to be much fairer (Ni), only give pensioner benefits to the poor pensioners with pension credit, change state pension age to life expectancy -5 years and stop the interference in the housing market so that it crashes to free market values. Anyone else agree?

This generation and the next ones will have a lot less but Idont think it feels that bad as everyone is in the same boat

Andrew, I don't think we are disagreeing. I just feel like one of a minority, an older minority.

Women not being able to continue working once married is far older than either WW, it is a much, much older social more. I am not sure many people nowadays believe that. WWII obviously caused changes, but women had fought for those rights for decades prior to that, the 1870s seemed to have been a good decade for change (Married Women's Property Act etc).

My mother was looked at sideways for wanting to go back to work.... 60s into the 70s that mindset was relatively prevalent. As one of the maligned boomers, my mother wanted and needed to work but was, as you say, discouraged from doing so.

www.nber.org/digest/nov05/w11230.html

Slightly condescending tone, but an interesting read.

The bus pass has three societal values.

First, it gets older people out of the house which is good for health - good news unless of course you want them to die sooner and stop drawing their pensions . . .

Second, it means fewer car journeys.

Third, it means less driving by older drivers. And while in theory there should be a regular programme for retesting them, so long as they have the vote and use it (and so long as their middle-aged potential-chauffeur offspring have the vote and use it) it's not going to happen.

In any event, today's passholders have paid tax, rates, poll-tax and council tax for previous generations to have their pass and it's our turn now. You may not like that point of view but it all comes back to the vote, doesn't it? We are a demographic that registers and votes!

Its changing expectations. My parents generation were more likely to own big homes with a room each for the children, often a spare bedroom etc. Its much more normalised for my generation to be having families in 1 or 2 bed flats. I think that will carry on for my children's generation as we become more crowded.

Older people say how can people cope in such small places but its because they haven't experienced it they can't get their head round it.

Nomama We are not disagreeing. A lot of young women and men today believe that such equality as women and men now have has been around for ever and fell out of the sky. You and I are not among them - we are neither that ignorant nor, alas, that young

I used the buses a lot, Andrew. From 9am they are packed with older people using their bus passes, so packed there's often standing space only. I got chatting to a bus driver who told me that it's often the same people using the bus every day. Some go to the end of the line, then go back again. They don't get off the bus, they just want something to do and because this is free... It does get abused. It's the silver vote, isn't it. Are there more elderly then under 25s by any chance?

How is it "abusing" the pass to use it simply to get out of the house?

Erm. LadySybil... are you now seriously suggesting that older people who get on the bus for the company should be forcibly removed and told to stay home alone until they die? How heartless!

Where did I say that, Noma? They should be means tested, just like the winter fuel bill.

Surely it's taking the micky just to sit on the bus all day? The councils pay a set fee per journey here. They should be providing day centres and things for people to do. It can't be fun to spend your day on a bus because you're lonely.

In London you can buy a one-day pass and spend all day taking journey after journey after journey but TfL only gets one payment. I can't see the difference.

So people who are lonely should be limited in their choice of how they address that loneliness? They might prefer the bus to the day centre. I know I would.

Have skimmed the thread, read the usual re baby boomers having it easy, my generation (70s child) having it easy etc.

From age 13 to when I left home, I worked in various jobs - for the last 6 months before I moved out I worked 4 different jobs (cleaning a pub first thing in the very early morning, on to cleaning holiday lets after that, onto waitressing in the afternoon, onto barwork in the evening) - I saved hard, so that I could afford to move out.
I left home at 18, moved around to where the work was (started in various service industry jobs - cleaning, waitressing etc), ate where I could for as little as poss, had very little disposable income for social stuff, but prioritised nights out over food most of the time. Rent was usually about half what I earned iirc, usually in a room in shared accom.

By 30 I was 10 years into a good career, married with 2 kids, now at a few months shy of 40 I am very comfortably off - still work hard but nowhere like as physically hard as I did as a teen/early 20s.

My point is, that my experience then is no different to what it would be now - I had 4 part time jobs because there were no full time positions available, I lived in a room in shared accom because I couldn't afford a flat of my own, I washed my clothes by hand in the sink because I couldn't afford the laundrette, I moved to where the work was.

It just is what it is, a not unreasonable expectation for an 18 yr old starting out on their own in work and life.
I cannot see that it is any harder now than it was then tbh.

I think its because some (most?)people will never move up so will never live in a house or own any property or have any pension etc. That is what has changed for the masses. Its going to stay like that though as older people live in bigger properties there isn't really anything available for families.

Ah, good point Andrew. I do think it would help to give younger people discounts on their travel too (I'm not young by the way). Buses/trains are expensive and it must eat up a lot of their wages.

I asked, LadySybil, didn't say you had said it...

I would also ask if you have ever been to a day centre? I'd sit on a bus and have a natter by preference too.

Not at all, Noma.

Yes, I've been to a few. My mother also goes to one and says she has a lovely time. I know a lot of services like this have been slashed over the past 5 years or so though

Some people take the bus to a free museum or art gallery and spend the day there. My magistrates' court has a few winter-months regular public-seats aficionados for whom it's a warm place to spend the day. I hope they find it interesting. One of the clerks told me that they seem to prefer any court where I am chairing, I have to wonder why!

Maybe I spoke to a misinformed bus driver!

Problem is, banana, that rents are much, much, much higher than they were 20 years ago....wages not so much. When I was a teenager in London, I recall friends renting rooms (albeit grotty) for £35 a week, in Zone 2.....how much do you think they would cost now?

You cant get most in work benefits unless you have children if you are young.You are more likely to be slightly older when you have children . As a working (part time) parent in a rented house with children you have a guaranteed state income.

I don't know how anyone can say if hasn't got harder. I am in my 30s and have seen if get 100 times harder since my teens.

So you hear that some old people are so lonely they sit on a bus all day and your first thought is that they're abusing their bus passes? Really?

Lots of things cost more now, stubbornstains. My water bill used to cost £30 a year (15 years ago). Now it's £250. My gas bill is £1,000 a year. Everything goes up and up.

I remember mothers being frowned at for returning to work. Their children were called 'latch key children' and that was the early 80s.
In fact it's still the case. How often do you hear journalists talking about a female MP and questioning how she can juggle work and family yet they never ask this of a man.

stubborn, I wasn't London area so have no experience of the London bubble at all - I agree that London is the anomaly and the difference there between then and now is no doubt huge.

I just think that the expectations that a lot of young adults now are completely disproportionate to reality.
I had no false expectation that I would be in a nice flat with a good wage by 20 - I did however expect to be there by 25.
I had no expectation that I would be a homeowner by 25, that was the preserve of professional types - I fully expected to rent for those early years, save for a deposit through my 20s. (As it turned out, we still rent due to our jobs as we move regularly - but we have deposits saved for when we do want to settle).

The younger people I see starting off in my work now have a completely different set of expectations than I and my peers did, and expect things quicker and better than we did at the same stage.
They seem to expect to be/have at 20 what I didn't expect til 30.