to resent paying Ni when my generation won't get a state pension

[clutchpearl]

Just about every think tank that does a report on the state pension says it won't exist for people under 40 and we won't have the luxury of a couple of decades supported by the state. Aibu to feel like its all some ponzi con?

What about people who have no children? Should they be stamping their foot about paying for education for other people's children? Perhaps should they should receive a discount on their taxes to relate to the amount spent in the NHS being spent on pediatric services? Maybe they could insist that none of their taxes go to fund child tax credit. After all they're not benefiting in any way or likely to.

YABU tax goes to benefit society as it is at the moment regardless of whether we are lucky enough to directly benefit or not

Yabu. We pay tax and NI for all services. I certainly don't begrudge my grandmother a decent pension. She worked and brought up 4 kids. She has paid into the system for years in order to get a pension which really isn't much. She is topped up by a work pension and widows work pension- if she didn't have those she would have struggled for years.

Government spending on pensions and things like winter fuel allowances exceeds the total NI take. www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7424 Spending static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/3/20/1395326815809/Budget-2013-the-governmen-010.jpgreceipts

Pensioners contribute nothing towards it and take all of it and more. It would thus be quite reasonable to view NI as a way to transfer a significant some of money from the young to the old.

Do pensioners need it? Overall, they are the second richest age group
www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_313608.pdf and far richer than working age people.

I would conclude that overall, they don't and the OP is right to be angry.

NI is a con, currently we subsidise the already wealthy (overall- that's not to say there isn't pensioner poverty) to a massive extent. It's times things changed and we need to ask some questions.

Why don't pensioners pay NI?

Why is JSA so much lower than the state pension?

Why do our parents get a free £300 each year "for fuel" - my dad spent it on 2 cases of wine FFS!

Note: My parents are lovely and really generous to me and my DD - but they have plenty of money of their own and don't need the free money from the state.

Sum of money not some of money
Sorry

I think the point is that we need to understand what we view as a 'benefit'

Lots of people on here the lefties predominantly make much of the fact that >50% of the State's welfare spending actually goes on pensions. NOw I take the more reasonable view that the State Pension is not a benefit in the normal sense - princiapply becasue (back in the day) you had to pay into it in order to take out, so it was more of a State sponsered insurance scheme. The government need to be clear that this is no longer the case. They're obviously reluctant to do so becasue it brings the whole ponzi scheme crashing down.

My personal view is that for as long as the pretense (that you're paying contributions - rather than just into the general pot) continues, they'll have to continue with the system. The most equitable way is to continue to raise the retirement age (or the age at which you can receive the pension) and pahse it out gradually.

The relaity though is that they'll likely just means test it out of existence for those of us that were foolish fortunate enough to be able to make our own provision.

I started work at 16. I am now 53 and have worked, and paid contributions for 37 years. By the time I retire at 68, i will have 52 years worth of tax and NI contributions.

This does not only fund my pension, it pays for your children's education, healthcare, tax benefits (sorry, not au fait with current allowances) etc., etc.,

I will not be rich in retirement, but will have enough to live, rather than survive on, and I deserve it.
JSA, by the way, is meant to be a short term fix, not an ongoing support system.
I agree, in some respects, about winter fuel allowances/bus passes etc., but have to admit to feeling like wailing 'It's not fair - I have worked and saved and gone without to get here and others who have pissed their money away are getting stuff I have to pay for'.

But then, that makes me as bad as the people who resent older people having a life, rather than an existence.

Often wish I could come back to these boards in 30-40 years when everyone complaining about the amount pensioners receive is a pensioner themselves to see what they're complaining about then.

The problem is that we're living longer and no government will bite the bullet and increase state pension age to where it should be (probably about 70). Both my grandfathers died at 70, having drawn their pension for 5 years. My DDad is still knocking around (happily) at 85 having drawn his pension for 20 years. But, he left school and started working at the age of 14, so had worked for over 50 years before he started drawing a pension. Do I begrudge paying NI to pay him a pension. Damn no. Same as I don't begrudge my taxes going towards schools, hospitals, disability benefits etc.

JSA is not comparable because the hope is that the recipient will be able to get a job at some point. My 85 year old Dad, not so much, although he's a dab hand with a dish mop.

Ratbaggity Yes - spot on.

When the pension was introduced, it was assumed it would only be drawn for five years or so, but things have changed dramatically and one can comfortably expect to be drawing a pension for 20 years+

What the solution is, I really do not know.

A Logan's Run type of approach? Hit 80 and it is goodbye? Or a pension that can be drawn for a maximum of ten years then you are out on your ear?

There is not a simple solution, and just as I would have been having a rant about old people being a drain when I was 20, I am now at the other end, and like nothing better than having a rant at the younger generation

Well I wish I could come back in 40 years to this.

I'm complaining about the amount someone is receiving in regards to how much they have paid in. For baby boomers this is 118p taking out for every pound paid in. Future generations will not be this lucky and will pay far more into the sysytem than they take out.

There is reason to resent the system.

When there was a big population bulge of babyboomers all paying taxes, the idea of paying the state pensions of a relatively small number of pensioners seemed like a good idea - it didn't cost each working person that much.

Fast forward a few decades, and the bulge in the population is amongst the retired - so it costs each working person a lot more to pay for it all. And the cost will continue to grow as life expectancies increase.

It's a zero sum game: if one generation wins, another must lose. And they did rather well out of it.

And they pissed all the North Sea oil up the wall. Norway set up a sovereign wealth fund. Our lot used it to cut their tax bills.

Mrsbethel, as I guess you know, it's even worse than that, even without North Sea oil we should have a sovereign wealth fund built up from having such an unusually large generation of active workers. (To fund their pensions and much higher healthcare costs in retirement).

The reality is that despite only having a small generation above, and the bonus of massive oil revenue, the baby boomers are retiring leaving their children saddled with a massive national debt.

In this context it seems astonishing that more isn't being done to address the intergenerational unfairness (and this is just looking at benefits/taxes, the older generation also lucked out on property - again at the expense of the young).

Unless we cut pensioner benefits soon or (preferably) up taxes on rich pensioners I think the OP is right. Our generation won't get state pensions as the country won't be able to afford it having spent all the money on the generation above us.

Fixing NI would be a big step in the right direction.

Surely this issue is already being addressed somewhat by the introduction of employer pensions for all?

I agree that the current state pension sytem will need drastically overhauling in order to support those less fortunate in old age.

YABU about NI though. It is a tax same as every other, just no government wants to be the ones to make it into a single employment income tax as the % rate would shock most people.

I'm complaining about the amount someone is receiving in regards to how much they have paid in.

Then again, I have to ask, why pick on pensions?

Today's pensioners on the whole probably are taking out more than they have paid in, but that goes for a massive chunk of the working age population as well. And children, who at least have parents to provide for them unlike pensioners.

If you want to prevent people taking out more (in cash) than they have paid in, then you may as well stop all cash benefits. Presumably you're ok with us all using services as and when we need them?

The state pension is something that enables everyone who pays tax (other than VAT) to feel invested in their society. We all know, God willing, that we will one day benefit from a state pension. In some cases, even when we don't reach state retirement our spouse gets to benefit from out NI.

I'd resent paying the amount of tax I contribute if I knew that even when I was too old to earn for myself, I'd be abandoned by the system I'd supported for others. Why should people pay tax on behalf of other groups of people who don't fund themselves knowing that when they need it, they'll get nothing?

Pensioners may not pay NI but we do pay tax. We have the same tax allowance as everyone else so the State pension is not taxed but everything above the tax threshold is taxed. I was talking to a friend who is 60 the other day and she hadn't realised this (not in receipt of her State pension yet, obviously).
I agree that there are some anomalies. Free prescriptions at 60 is one. DH and I both had prepaid cards for our prescriptions and as DH is still working we would have managed to carry on paying. Likewise the winter fuel allowance. Because it is linked to the female retirement age men get it whether they are working or not at that age. I have just received mine for the first time, despite receiving my State Pension a year ago, but I think it would be better delayed until about 70.

Well said Toooldtba....100% agree with you. For over 45 years I paid fairly high chunks of my salary into NI for a State Pension, currently £400ish a month, plus a private pension. If I had not paid the large contribution towards the private pension, I would not be able to pay all my bills, feed myself or heat my property on £400 a month. I still have a son at University that we need to financially help from time to time, also.
I doubt very much that the State Pension will be removed. However, unless you have the foresight to finance your own private pension for your old age you will certainly be in trouble. I also find it extremely offensive that an older person's retirement should be labelled as idlement.

Oh & hands off....it is YOUR generation that has overspent on credit cards & generally overspent that has caused the national debt. This has nothing to do with older people who live within their means. The banks and building societies had no credit control after this was removed by the Thatcher government. It appears your education (paid for by my generation) is sadly lackng.

What FishWithABicycle said.

Bloody hell! The total lack of knowledge, insight and perspective is stunning.

Baby boomers - oh the bastards. They paid in all their working lives, were the first generation were the women also worked for the majority of their lives, the last generation that were spoken to like children when they wanted to borrow money, had mortgages capped at about 3 times the man's salary (lucky to get the wife's included at all), saved up to buy something rather than get it on credit - cos it was called tick then and if you missed a payment they came and took it away - didn't spend fecklessly, take on credit like it was a badge of honour, didn't have to have a holiday of any sort in order to be considered human and on and on and on....

Yeah. They really are the root of all evil, should be shot!

Demel, to criticise my education with such a massively ignorant post is laughable.

FWIW unlike the baby-boomers who did have their education fully funded by the generation above, we had to pay for (at least a chunk of) our degrees ourselves through loans.

Government debt comes from the government spending more than it gets in. The reason it is large is that as a country we've consistently underpaid taxes and overspent at the goverment level.

It has nothing at all to do with personal indebtedness (which I agree is a concern particularly for very poor working age families but that's another thread).

If older people are better able to live within their means perhaps that's a hint that you should pay more in as a group. The people I see on giant cruises and other luxury holidays are baby-boomers not the young.

I don't understand how Thatcher's policies are our generation's fault - you voted for her not us. We were at school (or not even born!)

I live in a Conservative constituency that has had a massive majority for as long as elections began. Hence, whilst always voting, I have had no influence in deciding the Govt.
As has previously been stated, any private pension received is subsequently
taxed, which will then help other members of society. I did not go to University. My state education was funded by previous generations. Both my sons have taken out student loans. My eldest son has taken out a second loan to fund his Masters also. Despite having a private pension, funded at my own expense & now paying tax on it, I cannot afford to pay for the Uni fees.
Nomama....I second your emotions!!

And share a taste in music, it seems

BrendaBlackhead Your FIL's pension is due under the contract he signed when he joined. He has lived long; others don't. My first manager worked to 61 at the request of the office to finish a project; and died six months later. Widower, not even a widow's pension for the taxpayer to pay. It's no different to buying an annuity. You are betting you will live long; the insurance company is betting you won't.

Yes there were actuaries, but they can't predict the life expectation of individuals, only of large groups - and nobody predicted some of the advances in medical science of recent decades. Twenty years ago I survive a form of cancer which would have killed me fifteen years earlier.

Nomama Would you please walk on some ground so that I can worship it?

Nomama

From tone you clearly don't realise it, but the banks treating you like children was a MASSIVE positive and is the main reason that your generation is so wealthy.

As 3x salary was all you could borrow, that's what houses cost. With your two incomes that was very affordable.

Later on, banks allowed 3x joint income. People continued to spend as much as they could on houses but as there was no increase in supply, what happened was houses doubled in price.

You therefore gained 3x a salary as free money (paid for by the generation below) whilst having cheaper housing.

With all that you still will take more out of government than you put in and seem to despise the generation below.

Even though they are largely paying for the fact that you are the richest set of pensioners ever.

Going to Uni was not an option for me, so I certainly did not benefit from free tuition fees.
My first holiday abroad did not happen until I was in my mid twenties. We did not have a car, telephone, washing machine etc., for the first 4 or 5 years of marriage, because we could not afford it and had no sense of entitlement. That was just the way things were.
When my children were small I went out to work when my husband came in, there was no childcare provision in those days.
I would say that we were in our late forties before life became easier. We supported both sons through university and have continued to help where we can. I work full time and also run around like an idiot looking after my mother with dementia and MIL with bowel cancer.

I love my sons to pieces, but it drives me to distraction when they complain about saving for a deposit for a mortgage when they spend ridiculous amounts on mobile phone contracts, have they latest gadgets and buy their lunches every day.
Nothing wrong with the way anyone chooses to spend their money, but I do get pissed off with hearing how easy everything was/is for us and how hard it is for the younger generation. It has always been hard for the younger generation, no change there. BUT there are more support systems and opportunities these days too.

I DO have sympathy for anyone starting out today, but don't heap the blame on us - we have been there and done that too!

As said earlier, there is no easy answer, but pointing the finger at pensions is just as bad as pointing the finger at single parents, long term unemployed and anyone needing long term and expensive medical care. We are all drawing on state funds and all believe we are 'entitled'.

I would have no issue with delaying/ means testing winter fuel, bus passes, prescriptions etc., but fear the sum saved would be a drop in the ocean, and probably swallowed up by the additionAl costs of administering a means tested scheme.