To think many mumsnetters have little or no understanding of life on a low income

[crocodilesarevicious]

It's going to be hard to know how to phrase this as I don't want to cause offence.

I've been hanging around for a while. One thing I've noticed is that benefit threads become angry very quickly because so many are quite loud and fixed in their view that the UK is full of starving children reliant on value baked beans from food banks to fill their hungry tummies.

However, if someone who is on benefits or a low income is searching specific advice! they are often given quite short shrift. I've noticed this a few times - they are told, often brusquely, to retrain as something at university - usually a teacher or a nurse. These are graduate professions yet they are chucked out as something anyone can do. Not everyone can go to college or university due to financial restraints but also, some people don't have the academic ability. This is dismissed and shrugged off - if people aren't on much money then they need to find a way to make more money, even if this isn't possible.

Childminding, or starting a business is also suggested. People who rent may not be able to do this. Again, this takes a certain amount of financial and business savvy not to mention starting up costs.

Cooking is another area people seem to have little understanding of. It's so easy to cook healthy, cheap nutritious meals if your kitchen is large and a pleasure to cook in and you can whiz in the car to sainsburys or Tesco. If you have a small, grubby, dark kitchen and the local Spar or premier shop it's a bit different.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that when talking about people in general terms, Mumsnet likes to be left wing and PC. Yet when it's someone specific, irrelevant and often patronising advice is given to them and then they are flamed when they can't act on it.

My own position, while I'm a graduate and employed in a professional capacity, is perhaps between the two. I've never been reliant in benefits but was homeless for a time in my 20s and am able to see how things that look simple often aren't.

Oh gawd. How well timed. For the ultimate in not a clue, BBC2 has just had the spectacle of a Tatler journo shopping in Poundland.

Yeah.I agree with that crocodile I have used payday loans not ideal of course but the advice on here is always can you not see if your entitled to any benefits no I have done that not entitled and even if I was they take several weeks to come through and the kids need feeding now or can you not get an overdraft yes I have one they won't increase it and the kids need feeding now ! I don't use them now but have done when necessary!

"Raging"?

I think you may have misunderstood my posts (and I'm certainly not raging.)

It isn't about people not being poor, it's about people assuming everyone on Mumsnet has money or access to money.

That would be forgivable. To cite my earlier example, if I refer to my DP people may assume she is a man. When I gently correct them at most I expect an 'oops, sorry' and move on.

However, when someone explains they can't do because of money! people don't accept it and frequently become highly critical of the OP, often aggressively asking why they had children, why don't they become a teacher, a nurse, a childminder, why don't they shop here, why don't they drive, do this, do that.

Frequently from the same people who become holier than thou about Hungry Tummies and 'I am sat here crying' because a seven year old missed breakfast.

They don't seem to realise the two are intrinsically linked. It's difficult to get out of poverty and it doesn't just affect benefit claimants.

OP What you and posters who agree with you seem to be saying is that when responding to posts on an anonymous chat room, you should automatically assume that the parent you are talking too is too poor, too unintelligent, too lacking in any type of support or too something else to even consider a reasonable suggestion that was made based on the barest of facts.

Ourvye. I was just going to post about that too. Blimey

My iPad keeps inserting random exclamation marks.

It's really pissing me off.

Now I am raging about that!

one thing I have found is that it is easy to save money if you are on a lowish with a bit to spare income by buying the reduced tomatoes when they are on offer. if you are on a low income, there is not the money spare to buy twenty tinsof tomatoes in one go. or the larger packet sizes.

dried beans are cheap, but then require lots of money on fuel to cook. as do lentils. (oh and I am the weirdo who loves lentil bolognaise)

the just walk into town to get the cheap food at the market, yes great... carrying back requires a rucksack to stop your arms stretching to the floor, oh and shoes will wear out quicker... oh and the food is not that much cheaper anyway.

I am lucky that I have been taught how to save money, have been bought up with not a lot of spare cash and to be frugal and do not miss some things, and have an income that although is lowish, does leave a bit of spare for saving for emergencies and have had help of parents along the way. not everyone has this.

OP, I havn't read the full thread yet but i think I love you; you say everything I so often think but don't know how to articulate. Now to read the full thread.

No, I'm not WooWoo.

I'm suggesting two things.

Firstly, don't assume - ask, don't tell. 'Is learning to drive a possibility?' doesn't assume. 'Well, learn to drive then!' often accompanied by does. It's also rude and to someone already struggling is dismissive and arrogant and obnoxious.

Secondly, if someone explains X isn't a possibility due to financial pressures, accept it. Don't try to make our everyone can be a SAHM by having camping holidays and driving an old car because that poster might have no holiday and no car.

Thirdly, don't be a dickhead and act affronted if the OP can't take up your brilliant suggestion. They aren't not doing it to spite you, they're not doing it because they can't.

It's OK to say 'that sounds shit.'

It's fine to make suggestions. It's the aggression and the blame attached to them I'm taking issue with. And I am calling it as hypocrisy because it is.

Three things!

Your suggestions are all very good ones as well, and Mumsnet would be a kinder place if everyone took you up on them.

Yes, Woo, it's easy to go on to a "how do I save money on my weekly shop?" thread and not find out until page two whether the current spend is £25 or £250. But as OP says, it's rude not to accept someone's assertion of their circumstances, whether the assertion relates to finances, family support, health or whatever else.

Crocodile - payday lenders - I'm not sneering - but I don't think people truly realise/appreciate that all borrowing that money (any money) can do in the long term is make you poorer and more likely to need to go back again -and become even poorer - even more trapped...
They are a safety blanket that is actually a noose.
Get rid of them (and similar shysters and illegal loan sharks ) and what will happen?

Yanbu at all Op.

My dds friend at school is the youngest of 5 children, their mum is on her own and on benefits. She has complex physical and mental health problems, she has no family support and 2 of her children have SEN.

Once her youngest turned 7yo she was told she could work and her income support was reduced to JSA. They live in poverty, last year she couldn't afford to buy any Christmas presents for the children

I am a single parent and on a low income but don't consider myself to live in poverty although compared to some mners I probably do!

Unlucky, it's a good question - what will happen?

Essentially some people won't be able to access money. Some may see it as 'saving' them, but I'm not so sure. I posted earlier about my scenario with the washing machine - it cost me £5 p/w to wash my clothes as well as the time and trouble getting them there and back, and I had a car. How a family would cope I don't know. I can't imagine they'd be massively grateful for one of the few places they could get a washing machine being shut down (remember it's not only those on a low income with bad credit.)

Same with payday lenders. Ideal - no. But if your car breaks down and you need it for work and can't afford to get it fixed it's a catch22 isn't it: you lose your job or you lend some money. Most people would plump for the latter and by removing that choice without viable alternatives for everyone, not just those in receipt of benefits, I feel we would be disadvantaging some people further.

Cheesecake as I've said making suggestions is fine. Getting huffy and lashing out and blaming people for daring to be poor and informing them they should change, is not fine.

I was bought up by parents who were bought up in the war. I am now bringing up fairly young children. (mum and I were at the older end of the spectrum for first time mums) I have been bought up to save for stuff, make do and mend... until a few years ago, this was no longer normal, still not. it is harder to develop this attitude as an adult when one is living in a culture of everything now and derided by peers for not having thelatest this that or the other. people need to be educated in saving, pay day loans, hire purchase, debt, budgetting. this will not necessarily get them out of poverty but may prevent some from faling into more poverty.

still there are the bottom few who this will make not a damn bit of difference as there is just not enough coming in, too much has to go out, perhaps for example on trying to heat poor quality housing or paying more for electricty as you are on a card...

the washing machine thing.. you could have afforded to save for a machine, if you did not have to pay for the five pounds a week on washing...

you definitely need a little spare income to be able to save, in order to save enough to make changes so you can spend less...

I did the quiz posted up thread, (which is a very simplistic one really, as it doesn't take housing costs into account) and came out richer than 35% of the country, which horrified me, as I still struggle a bit.
But I can buy food, pay fuel bills, run a cheap ancient car. I have certainly been a lot poorer, things are on the up. Yet I still have to do my sums every month to make sure we don't go over. I still am barely saving anything, which is scary, as if the washing machine goes for example, I don't have the money for a new one. It would take me a couple of months to get the money together, but if I was poorer, say when I was unemployed, and paying 60% of my income in rent, it would have taken a year to save the money.
Even for me, in the middle third (just!) I have to save to buy school shoes and dc clothes and trips, and our once a year holiday by the seaside. Life feels quite comfy compared to so many (more than I thought) but so many who are a lot richer than me would, be astounded that I hadn't bought any new clothes in years. Only charity shops, and even they are a guilt inducing luxury.

I thought the other day that I might actually be able to treat myself to new boots this year, as the chazza ones I have had 2 years are failing to bits. NEW boots, as in, no one else has worn them before! For the first time in 5 years.
And I am not really poor. If 35% of the UK are poorer than me, then we are really fucked.
One of the worst things the current government have done is stop the social fund and it was done so quietly, with no real, fuss in the media, a bit like the assault on legal aid. And yet it massively affects so many living right on the knife edge between just about making it, and falling off a cliff.
wonga et al exist because of these kinds of "small" cuts. The cuts to the CAB have also removed a lifeline, a beacon of hope and advice and support. I have cried in the past because it was going to be Xmas, and I had no money for a tree, or nice food. I could get ds a couple of little cheap presents, but I wanted a break for myself, feckless selfish fag smoking single mum on benefits that I was, a proper break, with a cheeseboard, a box of chocolates a couple of bottles of nice booze, some decorations. But mainly a break for the worry, that is just endlessly present when you are truly poor,the worry that is so much worse when you know you can go cold and hungry but your child can't.
Incidentally I was the recipient of a Mn secret santa parcel that year, so mumsnetters are not so bad but I agree that some of them just haven't got a clue about the daily grind and fear of actually poverty.

It is horrific when you are totally without anything and on the bones of your arse. And what some people don't seem to realise that being poor is bloody expensive.
gas and electric meters cost more to run. If you need a loan the only options available to you have the highest interest rates. Going to the laundrette costs a fortune. Trying to get a job costs. Interview clothes, bus fare, stamps, printing,internet access,phone calls. Even phoning the benefit department costs a fortune. If you are lucky enough to own a car you will pay more on your insurance if you live in a shit area ir don't have a driveway ..it goes on and on.
It's easy to live off benefits for a few weeks, its when dc breaks the strap on their school shoe, the washing machine breaks down ect that it all becomes a impossible mountain to climb

Hi OP. from reading various threads over the years, there is a certain polarity of MNetters. I have more of an idea of life on a low income from what I have read here, although it is fair to say I have no personal experience of low income. I tend to avoid posting on such threads because it is unlikely that my thoughts would be relevant or of assistance.

Isn't this one attraction of MN? I mean the fact that you can interact with people from all walks of life. Hopefully we will all become more open minded as a result.

I did that income test upthread and it said that 92% of the population are better off than us, that's including all income, but when you only include the income that I actually see after my childcare is paid, it said 100% are better off than us

We are on the bare bones of our arse, and live very much hand to mouth. It's stressful in a way that people who have never been in my situation can never understand properly.

We are on the bare bones of our arse, and quite frankly it's embarrassing sometimes coming on here and seeing some of the misguided "advice" from many mnetters who really don't have a clue what it is to be truly struggling.

I can't put my heating on because I simply don't have the money to, so my children have to wear extra clothes to bed and dh and I have to skip meals to have enough for them to be able to eat nutritious food. I cook everything from scratch as I can't afford to buy premade anything.
It's not as simple as earning more, it just isn't

John I agree. MN is a great way to broaden your mind actually and many people find themselves educated on issues they'd never have come across thanks to MN.

YANBU

YANBU