To think many mumsnetters have little or no understanding of life on a low income

[crocodilesarevicious]

It's going to be hard to know how to phrase this as I don't want to cause offence.

I've been hanging around for a while. One thing I've noticed is that benefit threads become angry very quickly because so many are quite loud and fixed in their view that the UK is full of starving children reliant on value baked beans from food banks to fill their hungry tummies.

However, if someone who is on benefits or a low income is searching specific advice! they are often given quite short shrift. I've noticed this a few times - they are told, often brusquely, to retrain as something at university - usually a teacher or a nurse. These are graduate professions yet they are chucked out as something anyone can do. Not everyone can go to college or university due to financial restraints but also, some people don't have the academic ability. This is dismissed and shrugged off - if people aren't on much money then they need to find a way to make more money, even if this isn't possible.

Childminding, or starting a business is also suggested. People who rent may not be able to do this. Again, this takes a certain amount of financial and business savvy not to mention starting up costs.

Cooking is another area people seem to have little understanding of. It's so easy to cook healthy, cheap nutritious meals if your kitchen is large and a pleasure to cook in and you can whiz in the car to sainsburys or Tesco. If you have a small, grubby, dark kitchen and the local Spar or premier shop it's a bit different.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that when talking about people in general terms, Mumsnet likes to be left wing and PC. Yet when it's someone specific, irrelevant and often patronising advice is given to them and then they are flamed when they can't act on it.

My own position, while I'm a graduate and employed in a professional capacity, is perhaps between the two. I've never been reliant in benefits but was homeless for a time in my 20s and am able to see how things that look simple often aren't.

I've had to hand wash for a short time. It was not fun. I wouldn't want to do it as a regular thing for an extended period of time. But then, at the time, I had a potty training 3yo and a 6yo with disabilities that poo-smeared and still was incontinent at night. It was definitely something I wouldn't want to do again.

Reading this thread I'm reminded of a passage of one of The Discworld books by Terry Pratchett's, where a character is musing on the differences between rich and poor.

He realises that a rich person will buy the best boots they can afford, which will last them ten years or more.

A poor person will buy the best boots they can afford, which will have cardboard soles and let the weather in and need replacing in a few months when they've worn out.

Over ten years, the poor person will have spent more on boots than the rich person, and will still have wet feet.

This, he decides, is one of the reasons the rich are so rich and the poor remain poor.

Although this passage is from a fiction book, it seems to illustrate the point that being poor is really, really expensive.

yes rachelwatts, I've often heard the phrase "I'm too poor to buy cheap", your post explains it well

another daft example, we recently got lost on a journey we had to take, we bought a sat nav from ebay, £8, as we didn't want to get lost, but as the sat nav was quite a few years old it didn't recognise the newly built motorway we were on so couldnt give us directions and so we got lost....

buying cheap doesn't pay but when its all you can do.....

its true you have to be well off to take advantage of discount offers, you know the big sack of rice or the bulk offers.
A poor person who goes to the launderette could pay for several washing machines over a couple of years.

You've only got to look at the APR on the Payday loans to see just how fucked you are if you need to take one out, whilst the owners of Wonga are living in mansions.

NewEra that is true, but I also see the point where people say that if the payday loans are gone completely, where will people in desperate need of money get it? They can't get a loan, councils no longer do the emergency loans.... so they're just stuck.

Maybe there will be more of the ethical credit unions set up? Credit unions might be the wrong term, but I can't bring the right one to mind right now - they are locally set-up groups where people can borrow money at an affordable interest rate.

Maybe there will be more of the ethical credit unions set up? Credit unions might be the wrong term, but I can't bring the right one to mind right now - they are locally set-up groups where people can borrow money at an affordable interest rate.

there's a simple reason why loans to the poor have high rates of interest - they cost more to maintain. Loans to the poor are usually quite small and the probability of default much higher, hence the high rate to make the business viable.

HSBC can either loan 300000 pounds to someone with a good credit history, or they could loan 200 pounds to someone with poor credit history. it's no mystery why one has a higher rate of interest. those loans cost more to maintain.

To the OP. I think you are making the poor out to be helpless victims, and helpful suggestions may empower them. You are right, university isn't the route out of poverty for everyone. But there are a lot of people who aren't academically inclined who make a good living. Tradesmen, especially in London, make a killing, and I am sure I am not the first person on MN to suggest that. And yes, you can eat cheaply if you know how to cook. I got some of that knowledge from my mother (while not wealthy and overworked, she taught me to cook. My privilege I guess). You have to get that knowledge somehow, and while I recognize I might be lucky in that regard, a library card and cookbook from the library are free.

Some sympathy is probably nice, but I think helpful advice is a good thing. Better than telling someone they are forever destined to live a crappy life.

I think lots of mumsnetters are very ignorant of the extent of poverty and lack of opportunity for many, many people. Half the country earns less than 16,000 per year (myself included). The solution usually offered is to get a better paid job. Where are those millions of better paid jobs going to come from exactly? I don't see any opportunities around me and I'm a graduate with lots of vocational qualifications and years and years of experience, so what chance do others have?

Lots of people are misled into thinking that getting a university educaton will be the way of avoiding poverty, when in many cases it is the cause of it.

you can eat cheaply if you know how to cook

What if you have nothing to cook on? As has been pointed out several times, if you have a choice between food or fuel then it doesnt matter if you the queen of frugal catering as you dont have everything you need in order to cook a meal. I can cook very well indeed but there have been times in my life when it wouldnt matter if I had a fridge full of ingredients as I had nothing to cook it on.

You have to get that knowledge somehow, and while I recognize I might be lucky in that regard, a library card and cookbook from the library are free.

Not if you dont live within walking distance of a library they're not. In my town to get to the library and back would cost £4.40 in bus fare just for me. Thats a big chunk of money for someone where every penny counts.

Tradesmen, especially in London, make a killing

Well a) believe it or not, the world doesnt end at the M25, we dont all live in London and b) what is a person supposed to feed their family on and pay course fees and childcare with while they are training? Loans are available for some vocational courses but not all and they dont cover living costs and childcare.

~This is exactly the patronising and simplistic crap that the OP is complaining about!

Bogey exactly and as I said earlier on this thread eating cheaply is ONE thing when you have a cupbard full of herbs and spices and another when you only have a bag of lentils and a carrot.

People who aren't set up t cook from scratch or who don't know how would be bemused at eating lentils for instance. It's ok if you know how to make it taste nice...I do thanks t various people who've taught me over the years but if I didn't then I know I'd be buying shit from Iceland because it has some flavour.

I SWEAR one of the best things to do for people who are struggling and who can't cook is to teach them how and provide a basic kit of herbs and spices.

Excellent thread and I totally hear you OP.
The person who mentioned dressing their baby in a mould spotted vest made me cry.
I've been very poor, not poverty though. But I have an absolute fear of going back to that, it's TERRIFYING when you don't know how you're going to pay your rent and you have no back up. My chikdhood was very insecure with periods of not daring to answer the door incase it's someone we owe money to, not daring to answer the phone. I still hate answering phones, it's never left me! My bedroom walls were so wet and mouldy we had to move my bed away from the wall because I kept getting a sore throat and achy neck.
I wouldn't wish those feelings of fear and hopelessness on anyone.

I think it's also a fallacy that calorie for calorie, cooking from scratch is cheaper. I just had a look on Iceland's website, you can get a frozen deep pan pizza for 89p. I don't think I could make it for that. It might be healthier and cheaper to live off lentils, but other posters have pointed out, you need other resources to do that.

Put it another way, why is there such a strong correlation between obesity and poverty? Because if you've got only £1 to spend, you're probably not going to spend it on broccoli (60p in my supermarket yesterday), particularly if you're not sure how to cook and serve it. It's better in the short term to buy something tinned or frozen (doesn't go off) which will fill you and your kids up.

And before everyone piles in I'm not saying it's impossible to eat healthily and cheaply, just that the evidence is that it's much, much harder to do so, for all the reasons outline by PP.

The solution usually offered is to get a better paid job.

And that's so easy, right? EVERYONE that is poor is not going to be able to do so. There aren't that many jobs. And realistically, who would then do the lower paying jobs??

bag of lentils and a carrot.

fry some onion, garlic, carrots. add tin of tomatoes and lentils. eat with bread. no herbs or stocked pantry needed. you can really liven it up with a few spices and herbs, but that's not necessary.

People who aren't set up t cook from scratch or who don't know how would be bemused at eating lentils for instance.

sure, not everyone grew up on lentils. but yes you can learn. What I described is what I ate a lot of at uni (or variants) because I couldn't afford much and my parents weren't in a position to help much. Yes, I had the knowledge.

I can cook very well indeed but there have been times in my life when it wouldnt matter if I had a fridge full of ingredients as I had nothing to cook it on.

are you talking about no hob to cook on? I am sure there are desperate people out there with no hob, but my guess is this is not the norm.

Loans are available for some vocational courses but not all and they dont cover living costs and childcare.

it's going to be a struggle sure. Who are we talking about here? Single mothers? Families that struggle? it depends of course.

And library cards. Some people may not be able to get to a library, but many can. it's a helpful suggestion. it's not meant for everyone. but you can do other things. Borrow a book from a friend. and I know that the world doesn't end at the M25, but people can learn trades and if you can't get a trades job in your city, you may want to move to within the M25.

I am just saying that giving helpful suggestions isn't actually bad. if you can't do some of the things, do others.

no hob or no money on the leccy to use it...

I SWEAR one of the best things to do for people who are struggling and who can't cook is to teach them how and provide a basic kit of herbs and spices.

I totally agree and I am baffled as to why there is so much opposition and negative comments over this.

OK some people have no money and no household goods, but there are many many more people that just can't or won't cook and won't put in the tiniest bit of effort, live on takeaways and ready meals and then complain that they are skint and unhealthy. I earn a decent salary and if I chose to live on takeaways and ready meals I would get by but have no other fun money.

Cooking equipment doesn't have to be expensive and doesn't have to be bought all at once. Perfectly servicable stuff is available in supermarkets, ikea, Wilkinsons, charity shops etc. You can even get a cheap stick blender for £5 to £10 for making soup.

Basic spices can be had very cheaply (Asian aisle in supermarkets, or independent shops not Schwartz jars). You could get everything you need to start you off for the price of one takeaway curry.

Even the fuel doesn't have to be expensive. Slow cookers etc can be used instead of ovens for stews.

I've just had a delicious bowl of lentil soup for lunch, that I made last night.

Three big portions were made from two past their best carrots, about 10 pence worth of lentils, an onion and a stock cube. I blended it, but it could equally be made chunky if you don't have a blender. Total cost less than 50 pence for the whole panful.

cheaper to live off lentils, but other posters have pointed out, you need other resources to do that.

lentils might literally be the cheapest protein out there. It's what's eaten for protein in many poor countries. I agree, you do need the knowledge. But is telling someone that this a bad idea?

I'd also like to say, I used to have the romantic notion that if you just worked hard, eventually you'd do well. That was the philosophy I was brought up with, despite how hard my parents struggled financially. But it's mostly bollocks to be frank. You also need some support, some cash, and a dose of good luck.
I worked hard at school, I was an A+ student. I got in to a good Uni, along with some friends. Then I suddenly realised that whilst they were getting a monthly allowance and their rents paid by their parents, I had absolutely no way of affording to be there. I had 2 jobs, couldn't afford any of the books, couldn't pay my rent or eat at points.
One job offered me full time hours, so I took it to save my sanity and dropped out of Uni. I could see no other way.
I'm now mid-30's and only just breaking £20k in a job that is OK, but I know I have so much more to offer. Many of my friends are earning plenty more than that in rewarding professions. They didn't work harder than me, in fact they worked less hard because while they were out partying I was the one behind the bar serving the drinks! They were just lucky.
I do still have aspirations, and am fortunate to be OK money wise these days so maybe I'll get there one day........but I only feel like that now because I have the support of my DH.
If you have absolutely nothing to start with, to make something out of that nothing is nigh-on impossible, even if you work yourself to the bone.

Cooking equipment doesn't have to be expensive and doesn't have to be bought all at once. Perfectly servicable stuff is available in supermarkets, ikea, Wilkinsons, charity shops etc. You can even get a cheap stick blender for £5 to £10 for making soup.

my first pots, pans and cutlery were from a charity shop.

Vertde I agree.

It goes back to what Rachel posted about the Captain Vimes Boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness, you have to be quite well off to live cheaply. I can afford to have a small food budget because I have good cooking and storage facilities. I can afford a bigger spend once in a while for the extras and "store cupboard" items that make the difference between plain bland ingredients and a tasty meal. When I was counting every penny and still not coming up with enough, I didnt have that luxury. At one point I didnt have a fridge so I couldnt even keep milk over night in the summer, I had to go to the local shop every morning so the kids could have breakfast. Crap for them and more expensive for me than buying it a couple of times a week at the supermarket.

@bambamb

I didn't do uni in this country. I had student loans to pay for living expenses. But I have a few questions. Could you not get a student loan? how about housing benefit?

It's all very well advising people to go to a charity shop for pots and pans but when you have less than 5 pounds left over at the end of the week then that money is probably going to go on other essentials such as shoes for children or god forgive us... a treat.

And Written are you advising ME to use onions and garlic to liven up lentils? I've already explained that I can cook thank you.

Alice - maybe read my whole post.

It appears to me that some people don't want actual advice on how to improve their situation. They just want to whinge on about how bad they have it. If you have no means of cooking food, don't buy a fridge full of food that required cooking. Slow cookers, electric frying pans and the like can be picked up for a few pounds. Everyone on here has the internet, there are plenty of recipe sites all of which are free. If you are unable to find a job doing what you want then you'll have to do a different job like the rest of us. There are jobs out there, hundreds of thousands of them. Why else can I get well paying jobs and others can't?