To think many mumsnetters have little or no understanding of life on a low income

[crocodilesarevicious]

It's going to be hard to know how to phrase this as I don't want to cause offence.

I've been hanging around for a while. One thing I've noticed is that benefit threads become angry very quickly because so many are quite loud and fixed in their view that the UK is full of starving children reliant on value baked beans from food banks to fill their hungry tummies.

However, if someone who is on benefits or a low income is searching specific advice! they are often given quite short shrift. I've noticed this a few times - they are told, often brusquely, to retrain as something at university - usually a teacher or a nurse. These are graduate professions yet they are chucked out as something anyone can do. Not everyone can go to college or university due to financial restraints but also, some people don't have the academic ability. This is dismissed and shrugged off - if people aren't on much money then they need to find a way to make more money, even if this isn't possible.

Childminding, or starting a business is also suggested. People who rent may not be able to do this. Again, this takes a certain amount of financial and business savvy not to mention starting up costs.

Cooking is another area people seem to have little understanding of. It's so easy to cook healthy, cheap nutritious meals if your kitchen is large and a pleasure to cook in and you can whiz in the car to sainsburys or Tesco. If you have a small, grubby, dark kitchen and the local Spar or premier shop it's a bit different.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that when talking about people in general terms, Mumsnet likes to be left wing and PC. Yet when it's someone specific, irrelevant and often patronising advice is given to them and then they are flamed when they can't act on it.

My own position, while I'm a graduate and employed in a professional capacity, is perhaps between the two. I've never been reliant in benefits but was homeless for a time in my 20s and am able to see how things that look simple often aren't.

I guess the idiotic answers are from people who worked out at 18 which career would afford them a decent pension at 70. They then decided to meet someone early to have kids with. Saved by not marrying. Moved 400 miles for cheaper housing but remote working to London via Internet. Always only had second hand cars and camped.

See I think most people don't go through life like that but on here, it's met with astonishment.

It's so bizarre

I also think that this thread is ending up as a classic example of what OP was talking about, posters coming on and saying "but I did x y z so it is possible".

No, it was possible for you, in that place and time, with the resources that were available to you. That experience, while it may be helpful, may not be possible for somebody else for all the different reasons that other posters have elaborated.

I think just as some people within mumsnet do not understand what a low income is,I think others do not understand what it is to live in an area where every decision you make for your child like where to live,school,friends etc is vitally important as the area is riddled with crime etc. and how " moving down the road" can make a significant impact not necessarily to your child's education but your feeling of safety and mental well being.

But equally it may be possible for the other person, or it may give them an idea that might help them.

We cannot know all the variables in every poster's life, so all we can do is offer our advice in the hopes that it may be useful to someone.

Anyway! Derailing the thread in my debate with sunny which is one sided as she hasn't returned sorry!

Crocodilesarevicious Ive just read through this thread and would say 100% YANBU. I was lucky in in that I got a full grant so I could go to university and so I have a decent job and am relatively middle class in lifestyle (but no au pairs or holiday home etc sadly.) However I know what its like to be (really) poor.

When I was 10 my DF developed a major health problem which led to him becoming an invalid until he died 12 years later. My DM couldnt work (except occasionally doing Christmas work once my brother was older) because she had to be his carer and also look after my brother, who was a baby and then later at primary school. If it hadnt been for family I dont know how we would have coped oe uncle used to get us a tv whenever ours went bust, other relatives put together a Xmas hamper every year, etc , the family paid for my dads funeral as the insurance wouldnt cover it (he became uninsurable basically). We were still so hard up that sometimes we couldnt even afford toothpaste, we used salt to clean our teeth. (Ive never told anyone that before and can imagine some of you being aghast). When you have to make a choice between food, gas/electricity and toothpaste, which do you think gets priority? Factor in that whenever my DF was in hospital (often for weeks at a time and on one particular occasion for almost a whole year in one stretch) our benefit reduced as he wasnt at home and then my DM had to visit him in hospital, sometimes at the other end of the county, with no car and not always able to get a lift, so she had less income and more expense.

I appreciate many people on here or in RL have no idea what its like to be poor (properly poor I mean) and many Im sure are sympathetic but others come across hopefully without meaning to as being judgemental and patronising. Just think for a second before you post - for instance one poster referred to free days out for kids thats great and I know she meant well but how do you get there? It costs money.

I want to say thanks for this brilliant thread by the way.

Oh I agree STDG, I'm not suggesting that posters shouldn't offer advice, but as OP said up thread, it's about understanding that not everyone has the resources to take it, or not accusing the of being obstructive/defeatist if they say "that won't work for me".

There are three categories of people who say I'm skint.

1. Those who can't afford to do what those around them are doing, whether that is school fees or holidays or buying new clothes. Although materially well off don't feel it because of the relative position;

1. Those who have to plan their spending really really carefully, and for whom a big bill is a disaster - back to the broken washing machine.

1. Those who simply don't have enough to do the bare minimum eg feed themselves and heat their house.

The system is supposed to stop the third category eg tax credits but what this thread has shown it is clearly not working.

Yes,brilliant thread! Very interesting and such insightful posts/posters

I think one of the problems is that MN posters are individuals but often they are trapped by their social systems - long housing lists, lack of affordable childcare, male partner who has buggered off and gets away with paying nothing towards their kids and these systems that prevent individuals acting get forgotten and it all goes to the individual level.

Even posters worried about their partner drinking get told to butt out - because drinking heavily is still societally approved.

I'm disabled so the "get another job" to increase my income doesn't wash - there are not exactly a lot of employers falling over themselves to offer well paid part time work to a disabled person. It would be easier if I was a wife beating drunk I sometimes think, society lets them integrate fine but disabled people - well, we're the cause of our own problems it seems.

It would be easier if I was a wife beating drunk I sometimes think, society lets them integrate fine but disabled people - well, we're the cause of our own problems it seems.

I think you have something there Mig

YANBU, the demographic on MN appears to be quite skewed towards higher earners. The evidence for this is on both the active AIBU threads which have people exclaiming that they could not possibly be in certain % because they don't feel it.

People live beyond their means,that is why so feel "poor" this need for "stuff" is am epidemic in this country

An*

I think unfortunately disabled benefit claimants have been tarred with the same brush as those who are playing the system and claiming to have terrible back pain whilst playing for their local Sunday football team and hitting the press for doing so.

So where there used to be sympathy there is now raised eyebrows. It frightens me for the future as my DP has MS that could become progressive down the line and he could end up in a wheelchair and extremely weak. I do wonder whether he will treated like a scrounged if he has to claim disability even though he has worked his whole adult life.

*scrounger

My DSis complains that she has no money. She owns 3 houses, has a successful business, 2 cars (of her own), etc etc. But apparently everyone she knows is much much better off than she is... I find it weird that she not only feels poor, but actually thinks that it's appropriate to say so in front of us mere mortals who have to worry about money all the time.
I guess that puts her in category 1.
There should be a rule about not talking about how poor you are when you're the richest in the room.

NewEra - it's all about propaganda. Do the papers really believe all the rubbish they publish? I very much doubt it - it's just a political agenda to help the rich get richer by taking money from the poor/disabled.

Merrymouse I find your post a little offensive. Raising children and running a home is a very valued, and worthwhile job. I have more pride in my dc than any job I have done.

Pimms I think the phrase food or fuel has been around for quite long enough for people to have a grasp of what poverty looks like for some, without having to rely on a discussion on mn.

I think merrymouse's point might have been more about the feeling proud about being able to ensure your children have white socks than about whether raising children is something to feel proud of, soon.

I haven't read the whole thread as it's so long but this has struck a chord - I think it's the main challenge in our society today i.e. the widening gap between haves and have nots. For those of us who are slightly older (ok 50+) it can be really hard to accept just how much people consider to be necessities now and what constitutes poverty. I'm talking about tv's, phones, clothes etc etc. But also I think we rightly had the expectation that those things would come in time - i.e. a better paid job, a home of our own, more clothes and a colour tv. Nowadays I don't think people can see that in their future they will be better off - in fact they may become poorer if they have children etc. When I graduated I lived in a horrible bedsit with a shared bathroom, no phone and a landlady who let herself in when she felt like it. I walked at least half the distance to work to save on the bus fare etc etc. But I knew that things would improve over time because I was a graduate and would eventually get a better paid job. Sadly this isn't the case now.

Soon yes but Merry wasn't knocking being a SAHM she was saying it was undervalued. She was also saying women had very few options in addition to that.

Ok , maybe I misunderstood the tone of the post. Sorry.