To grit my teeth at the phrase, "gender scan"?

[magneticfield55]

For a start, unless you're paying for one which is specifically for that purpose, it's not. It's a medical scan to check organs etc.

But it's also not a, "gender" scan. All it will tell you is whether your baby has a penis or a vagina. That's it. It'll tell you that they're biologically male or female (intersexuality, androgen insensitivity syndrome etc aside). The inaccuracy of it irritates me. That penis or vagina will probably determine their position in the gender hierarchy, but it's still all we know about them at that point.

I'm a feminist and believe gender is socially constructed, with girls and women at the bottom. So I get really irritated by, "team pink!", "gender reveals". I know it can help us to bond with our bumps, but they're not even born yet and we're already basing our preconceived ideas of who they might be around their gender.

I don't begrudge anyone this, it just annoys me. AIBU?

Just wanted to sayI agree with Bulbasaur. That is exactly how I thought it worked and your explanation was better than mine would have been so thank you.

Your sex depends on whether you have make or female body parts.

Your gender depends on whether you feel male or female.

I think if people sometimes confuse the two it is not something to get worked up about, especially given that for most people the two turn out to be the same.

Gender is so not about what you like! Surely those are the stereotypes we are trying to get away from. Boys liking blue, cars, football and girls liking pink, ptincesses and dolls! People like what they like, this does not make them gender nutral or gender confused!

But again I ask- what does it mean to "feel like" a woman or a man? Specifically- not just giving me a link and telling me arrogantly to, "educate myself".

Premise of this thread is ridiculous. A perfect example of why so many of us who used to think we were part of the Feminist Club want to run screaming from the idea nowadays.

I feel like a woman (comes over all shania twain). I feel female. Dunno why, I just do. I have never really thought about it. I imagine it is the same for most people. I do tend to think of my gender and sex as the same thing, because they are.

I think all PEOPLE should be treated equally regardless of sex or gender but it's ok for there to be lots of different types of people who identify with one group or another be that sex, gender, race, religion or whatever.

I accept the use of gender is misused in the context described in th OP. I just wouldn't get worked up about it.

I didn't find out my sons sex at the 20 week scan but I don't think I would have begun imposing stereotypes on him in the womb. He has always been first and foremost my baby (even though he is now 8). I bought him a doll (which he never played with) as well as thomas the tank (which he loved) when he was little. He couldn't give a stuff about football and enjoys frozen and tinkerbell as well as Pirates and dr who. He likes what he likes and thats all fine by me. He is friends with boys and girls (though doesn't understand some of the girls fascination with one direction) and he identifies as 'a boy' probably because that is what he is. His gender and sex are the same.

But again I ask- what does it mean to "feel like" a woman or a man? Specifically- not just giving me a link and telling me arrogantly to, "educate myself".

The link was for nicklebabe.

Feeling like a woman is just another way of saying you identify as one. Do you identify as a man or a woman? You said you have BDD, so I'd venture you identify as the opposite sex you were born as.

If you're gender fluid that's an entire separate conversation and I don't know the answer to how you should feel one day or the next.

In your heart of hearts, you just know what gender you are and what you identify as. I know I identify as a woman, because I just do. It's who I am. I would be very put out if I was born with a penis.

It's not called a 'gender scan'.
It's to see if the foetus is progessing normally. It is so not about saying, "You're having a boy!! Goody goody yahoo! Team blue!"
It's abuot examining the organs, the growth, the amniotic fluid levels, the way the placenta is lying. It is such an important, vital scan. To say it's just about finding out the gender is making light of this procedure.

Bulbasaur, you are getting BDD mixed up with something. Body dysmorphic disorder is an anxiety disorder in which you worry a lot about your image and see flaws that aren't there. www.nhs.uk/conditions/body-dysmorphia/Pages/Introduction.aspx

It's nothing to do with gender or sex.

Confusion with gender dysphoria I think

I hate the phrase 'team blue' with a passion. A blue baby has serious medical issues, and may not survive.

But at least the over-twee 'colours' of babies is rare on MN (that's why I'm here, not on twinkling parenting sites).

But attributing colours to sexes does show that gender is becoming more, not less, of a straitjacket to the sexes.

Confusion with gender dysphoria I think

Yes.

The worst description I've seen was "we're going to find out whether we are having a princess or a boy today".

As well as clearly being an anomally scan (the state would pay for you to peer at an unborn child's genitalia). It also isn't a gender/sex scan for those who choose not to find out what they are having.

I'm not sure that you need to be too fussy about the words sex/gender with a newborn as the gender of a newborn is basically defined by its sex and imposed on it by society.

I've seen comments on the Internet about " potty shots " which I think is particularly horrible

YANBU to find people mis-using words annoying. I find people mixing 'sex' and 'gender' up as annoying as when people mis-use 'literally' etc. So grit away. I don't see why people think OP is being unreasonable to grit her teeth at this. It's not like she's going round hitting people over the head with an anthropology textbook or something, she's just finding it annoying internally and came on here to share that frustration.

AFAIU
Sex = whether you have a penis or a vagina - male or female. Well, that's your phenotype anyway. It can get more complicated with genotypes, but if you have at least one Y chromosome, you have a penis, and considered male.
Gender = whether you feel masculine or feminine, although I'm not convinced this one is an either/or state of being.

It's a feminist issue as cultural expectations of gender are what keeps women as second-class to men in so many areas of life and parts of the world, still today.

As to what the 20-week scan is actually for, that's a completely different issue entirely.

Gender is not if you feel masculine or feminine! I have plenty of traditionally feminine characteristics, but that does not make me female.

Gender is a synonym for sex, it's becoming less used as a synonym for sex and more often used as the self identified sex you are.

i.e. Sex is if you physically have a male or female sex organs.
Gender is if you are male or female.

It's impossible for anyone else to identify the gender of someone, but gender has a much longer history of being a synonym for sex, and it's enough of a history that you cannot really complain when people use it in that sense - particularly in situations where it's impossible to be confused as to the sense you're using.

I would of course view gender to be actually not be something that could be binary and is purely a spectrum with people sitting in different places.

yabu never heard anyone call the 20 week scan this. Only heard it used to describe a scan purely to find out the sex (as sometimes they can't tell you at 20wk, happened to me)

I also think there's far more to sexism and lack of equality than use of the word 'gender' but hey ho.

YABU to get your knickers (sorry, underpants one mustn't assume women wear knickers) in such a twist over people using the word gender instead of sex.

I have never heard it called a gender scan. I have only ever heard it referred to as a 20 week scan or anomaly scan.

YABU never heard it called this. They don't tell you anyway, because of the religious zealots who only want boys.

mrsruffalo

They still do tell people in lots of areas.

I lived in London when I had my children and it was a no-no.

I'm confused by descriptions of gender as 'what you feel like inside' and similar.

As far as I was aware, gender is learnt behaviour caused by the socialisation of male and female children into 'men' and 'women'.

That's why you can't tell gender from a scan. A unborn baby hasn't acquired any gender or gender traits yet.

I had my son in London in 2012 and the sonographer had no problem with telling me the sex (not gender - the OP is not unreasonable) at the end of the scan. Actually for a myriad complicated reasons I had another scan in another country within a week and that sonographer was happy to confirm the sex of my baby.

No, it's not all learnt behaviour, you are wrong.

Were you in east London? The policy there is pretty well established.

It depends on the hospital. My DS was born in London and we could have found out if we wanted.