To think yes actually it IS time to legislate to stop teenage drivers driving a car full of their mates around at night?

[northernlurker]

Very distressing story on BBC here. If you don't want to click - it's 5 teens killed last night in the same car. Two girls, three boys. I have a child the same age as some of them and it's just so sad. I've always thought that you couldn't legislate for this but something has to be done. There was a triple fatal crash on the same bit of road also involving teens a few years ago and it happens again and again. The first funeral I ever went to was a girl in the year above me at school. There were 4 in that car. Two killed, one badly injured and one slightly hurt.
If teenage drivers were limited to no more than two passengers under the age of 21 would it help?

Plomino - why are there no chevrons? that seems a bit reckless, to say the least! Or a road sign back up the road saying "sharp bend"?

The other restriction australia has is that provisional (newly licences) drivers can't driver high performance cars.

I think it is just removing a statistically high risk situation.

I think drivers can get exemption to drive between 11 and 5 if they are working.

When I am talking higher power I'm not necessarily talking about a lambo. There are shades of grey between milk floats and boy racers.

"If you need a high powered car to get you out of a sticky situation then that's a sign you need to review your driving practice and anticipation skills because the art is not being IN a sticky situation to begin with, not how well you can get out of it."

When I first started driving I was in a small underpowered car and driving on a two lane motorway. I had a lorry on my right and on the left another lorry started to merge into me without looking from an on-ramp. I accelerated away but not very fast to get out of the way and avoid being the jam in a jammy dodger. Would have been nice to have a little more power to help me get out of the way faster. Not all dangerous situations are your fault.

It's obviously possible to draft legislation that restricts young and/or inexperienced drivers' freedom to drive at night and carry passengers whilst still making exceptions for getting to work/school and young parents ferrying their own children. So any arguments based on those situations can be dismissed out of hand.

The countries that have such laws mostly have appalling road death rates. Our roads are safer, with only around 2,000 deaths a year, but we still need to look at all available measures and decide whether the potential lives saved are worth the cost/inconvenience.

I agree with you, Spoony. I long ago decided that I was best off with a car between 1.3 and 1.6L; any less and you have insufficient acceleration in exactly the sort of situation you describe.

It's such a heartbreaking story. And I must admit, as a generally anxious person, that the thought of DD being driven round by some boy racer when she gets to her late teens has always terrified me. (And I know in this case that the accident may well not have been the fault of the driver of the car the young people were in.) I don't even like her being in a car driven by friends' mums or dads, let alone the friends themselves!

I don't know about legislation. In a way, it seems to me that 17 is an awfully young age to allow people to drive, when driving is such a potentially dangerous thing - although it's also the case that the UK has one of the lowest rates of traffic accident fatalities in the world.

I think a discussion about risk and teens driving, and with passengers is a worthwhile discussion - but linking it to this crash, where we know few of the facts, and it was a 21 year old in another car that has been arrested for causing the accident, seems insensitive.

I haven't read the whole thread, but how many of you who are saying that the driving age should be raised live in London or another city where there are plenty of good public transport options?

So many of these accidents are caused by simple inexperience, driving in new weather conditions etc.

I would support a system that penalised younger drivers more heavily, and I also think that before a full license is granted that a new driver should have had some time in a car at night.

I can see part of the school these teenagers went to from my house, my brothers teens knew all five of the kids who died in this crash, and were particularly friendly with one of them.

Walking to (a different) school with my son yesterday and today has been a strange experience.

As soon as we left our house we could see the police outside the school these kids went to, standing at all the gates, talking to the kids as they arrived. It's a big site and they were all around it, at every gate, yesterday and today. The school flag is flying at half mast.

All the kids walking towards us to get to school were quiet, they're usually very noisy but they either weren't speaking at all or whispering very quietly. Every bit of conversation we could hear was about these kids and the crash. Lots of them were carrying flowers to leave for their friends.

Even at DS's school the flag was at half mast and the parents there were also talking quietly about how terrible it is.

It's awful. Locally, people are really feeling badly about this, so sorry for those who died and their families.

DS is too young for us to be worrying about him learning to drive, but DH and I have bent talking about what to do for the best when he's older and we have no answers yet. Is it better to drive him ourselves and risk him being a passenger for someone else in his peer group, or teach him to drive and hope he's sensible while he gains experience?

Even the black boxes, there were two boys killed recently because their black box had a time limit on it and they were hurrying to get home before the curfew on it began. So even that might not guarantee safety.

I don't know what the answer is.

If anyone connected to these five teenagers is reading, I'm so very sorry for your loss

Here in Northern Ireland we have an 'R' plate system ,where new drivers have to display R plates (meaning 'restricted') for a year in the same way that L drivers have to display L plates. It also means they aren't allowed to drive about 45mph. I would like to see this widened to include young drivers up to at leasy 21 years of age. In my experience of living in the countryside it is often not the very youngest drivers who are dangerous. Many slightly older boys are out at night doing 'donuts' and other stunts on quiet roads, putting others at risk

I quite agree OP.

DS1 has just turned 17, and is about to start learning to drive. He's absolutely desperate to get behind the wheel, but the idea of him driving around on his own, let alone his (lovely, known to me since they were 5) mates terrifies the life out of me.

I remember driving as a teenager, and was both inexperienced and rather cocky - a lethal combination. Sticking youngsters in cars with very little driving experience and very few, if any, limitations, and the worst is bound to happen. I would certainly welcome a wider debate.

My dad used to drive with Stirling Moss and used to do rallies so when I was a teen my dad took me out on all sorts of roads in all conditions and at night, and with a loaded car to teach me how to deal with all the different conditions. I also learned how brakes are affected by rain, aqua planing, under steer, why lorries backwash pulls you out of line, to accelerate on a hill so your speed remains constant and you don't slow down and safe overtaking technique.

If only all teens got that instruction, many don't even seem to register that your brakes are massively less efficient when it is wet!

This was reported as a proposal a year ago, don't know what became of it. but it influenced my decisions about DC driving.

I also think there should be a ban on intensive driving courses of the kind where they take the test after a week at the wheel.

I have a DS 18 and a DS 16. We live in a very rural area.
It never ceases to amaze me how many parents buy a car and allow their 17 year old new drivers to drive groups of friends around.
I was very unpopular when I refused to allow DS1 to have lifts with friends. When he passed his test I wouldn't let him take any passengers for 3 months. After that I let him give the odd lift to friends who were also drivers. This makes a difference, none drivers have no idea of the effect of distraction.

I remember how difficult it was at times to concentrate on driving with two screaming DC in the car, and I had been driving for 20 years.

He now has almost 2 years driving experience but I still have an absolute ban on him taking a car load of lads home at night, or on getting a lift with same. One of his friends was very lucky not to be in the papers after the boy who was driving a brand new powerful car ditched them in a field between two trees.

Some interesting statistics and comments on teenage driving here. I thought the point about the impact teenage brain development can have on the ability to handle distractions was interesting.

I don't agree with the need for further legal restrictions, but there could at least be a set of guidelines on best practice for teenage drivers available for parents to follow.

Such guidelines could include the recommendations from Miggsie on what extra knowledge is needed for new drivers; and the suggestions above, such as those from SSSF, on best practice regarding teenage drivers and passengers.

Perhaps Mumsnet can do this for us?

At DS's school, which is in a very rural area, there is a rule that no student may be in a car driven by another student. This rule followed a fatal crash by a student at that school. Another mum I know allowed her son to drive when she was in the car with him; but if they were giving a lift to another young person, she would drive. She said that his was to allow her son the maximum driving experience without putting any other young people at risk.

I am not so sure many people pass a driving test only after a few hours of lessons these days. My driving instructor said most people have 30 hours and private practice, more if they are older like me. I think it should be compulsory to have lessons in the dark. My instructor gave me lessons in the dark. He also took me into the country often so I could get used to narrow windy roads. I took my lessons in summer and I did find it a bit of a shock when I had to drive in winter conditions for the first few times. I have still not driven in the snow or ice, but thankfully have very little need to at this point in my life.

I can get behind a law that says driving instructors have to take students for lessons in the dark and as many road conditions as possible . I think though that our test is one of the best and very strict though.

I had many hours with my instructor, many with my husband and mum and after failing three tests and getting to have more practice in-between I feel it made me a safer driver in the long run. I probably had double the amount of lessons than most. I hated failing at the time but I am glad I did now.

It's a very sad case but I do not support more restrictions. All my older children passed their test at 17 as did I in my time and my youngest two will hopefully pass at 17 too. That does not mean they are bad drivers and as they don't have cars at that age they tend not to be driving anyone anyway but is it very important we keep age 17 for the test. once they are 18 they are away at university and it is much harder to fit in driving lessons. Also a lot of young farmers etc are in work at 17 and need to drive to get to work in the country.

My older 3 children had lots of lessons and also lots of practice with the parents (not something I relish with the twins next year but I shall endure it yet again as the more practice you get between lessons the better).

Sorry haven't read all the thread so apologies if already been said, limiting the number of passengers or stopping them driving at night is ridiculous all it does is reduce the number of dead in the accident or more accidents in the day. I am 23 not had one accident and whilst I agree more needs to be done the black box is probably the best thing going as it records all the driving and alerts the insurance company to speeding etc I worked nights or early mornings from 17 no public transport where I live so I wouldn't of been able to get to work. I also know a lot of older people that drive like absolute idiots people driving too slow are just as dangerous as those driving to fast yet no one seems to bother about them and want to restrict their driving to certain times or amount of passengers I have three children and if I had been restricted to driving only during the day when my ds needed the hospital I would of been stuck to a taxi which wouldn't of been possible as it would of cost £60 there and back.

I think some restrictions make sense though I wouldn't increase the age. I would like to see a minimum learning period of at least six months and a restriction on passengers after passing. I don't see why parents of young children should be exempt from this. What is more distracting than driving with a crying baby?
DS had a lot of lessons and months of practice with me. His instructor insisted he drove at different times of day and weather. After he passed his test he had motorway lessons. What DS has said, repeatedly, is that looking back he made more mistakes in his first year of driving due to inexperience.
There were a number at his college who passed after intensive courses and their parents gave them their own car, it seemed to be a trend.
Much of our driving is on country lanes (statistically more dangerous than motorways) and very little in cities or motorways.
Back to the price for me again soon with DS2.

YABU, that crash involved a number of cars and it has not been highlighted who was at fault yet. Not all young drivers drive badly, whatever age you put the limit at you will still start without experience and it's when that plus being stupid get together that these things happen.

I know some very stupid 21 year olds and I know some stupid 30 year olds.

My daughter's driving test date is looming and I am dreading her being let loose on the road by herself. There are so many things that young drivers are unaware of, yet they think they know it all! We are going to book an advanced driving course for her to provide further training, to follow on from the basic test training she is having.

The Institute of Advanced Motorists were on the BBC news recently advocating these driving courses. We have been in contact with DriverSkills as this company was recommended by a family friend who said the training was excellent. Once the dreaded test has been passed we will definitely get a course booked. Young drivers need all the help on the road these days to keep them safe. If anyone is interested the email address for this company is [email protected]