Unpaid internships

[Sunshine55]

Am I being unreasonable to think that unpaid internships should be banned. It seems a lot of companies just use this as an excuse for unpaid workers and once their contract has finished they get someone else in for unpaid work its just not fair.

@PausingFlatly

Thank you Justine. But I'm no clearer in understanding the difference between an intern and an employee with a job at MN.

Are interns employees? On short term contracts and protected by employment regs (not that those are much for short termers)?

Or are they volunteers who are paid pocket money?

Or... what?

As you can see from the exchange with Ofa, there is no definition of intern - and the ambiguity offers socially acceptable cover for businesses which do wish to exploit workers.

As far as we're concerned their rights are no different to any other employee on a 6 month contract.

I spoke to my DH about this last night and raised the point (that I made up-thread) that I didn't think there would be any workable way to stop this as how would you distinguish between voluntary work (which lots of people hoping to get into teaching or health care professions do in the NHS and schools but which also lots of people without any career aspirations in those fields do for purely altruistic reasons) and an unpaid internship? He said "it's simple if it's done for a not for profit organisation or a charity it's voluntary work, if it's done for a private company it's an internship" I couldn't think of a counterargument please help me out mumsnetters!

My son can only afford to have a flat share in London and he is on a proper salary. It isn't fair to expect parents to subsidise.

In terms of the law a person's employment status with regards to an organisation can be one of three:

Employee
Worker
Self-employed

"Intern" is the name of the job role like "cashier", "assistant", "administrator", "support worker", "manager" are job roles where the definite of work to be carried out will vary from organisation to organisation. I would expect most internships to involve some sort of on the job learning but other than that what they actually do is at the discretion of the business. However, most interns when you look at what they are doing would most likely be employees.

Fwiw I think Mumsnet do things properly and I have met Carrie with an intern she was carrying Carrie's handbag but also doing important things too! who was definitely learning on the job. The trouble with internships arises when they are not learning opportunities, when the person is being exploited to do work that is necessary to the business but not paid for that work, where training is little or none exisitant and where at the end of the placement a new intern is found to take over that work and the cycle of exploited labour continues.

He's right Pud. From Marmite's link up thread:

"Voluntary workers
Workers aren’t entitled to the minimum wage if both of the following apply:

• they’re working for a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or a statutory body
• they don’t get paid, except for limited benefits (eg reasonable travel or lunch expenses)"

I am not entirely sure what I think about this..... I need to think more.... I know in my sector there are loads of volunteers in organisations that are not registered charities or statutory bodies (I don't think, I'm not entirely sure what a statutory body is?) but are still not for profit. So think community arts organisations or local museums sort of thing...

NMW is about £13.5k so £1k per month from mumsnet is really not much less than that. And only for a limited time span.

Ilovepud if the work is necessary to the organisation (and type of organisation makes no difference) such that if the unpaid labour was not available it would still need to be done and somebody paid to do it then it is not voluntary work.

The very nature of voluntary work is that everything that is done is a bonus but if it didn't happen it wouldn't be the end of the world. Eg a PTA fundraiser involves voluntary work but if it didn't happen the children could still continue to go to school and be educated. They might not have a clutch of shiny new iPads or a new climbing frame but the pupils will still have the necessary basics to be educated. Take away a paid role like a teacher or mid-day supervisor and you have gaps in education or health and safety of the children and the school ceases to function effectively.

Dammit museumum that wasn't the answer I wanted! I wanted infallible, coherent arguments (that I could pass of as my own!) I'm guessing statutory body means one created by the government. It's a tricky area, I did voluntary work in a charity and NHS through my degree and afterwards, partly because I wanted to help but partly to experience relevant to the field I wanted to go into I can't think how this could be regulated.

The MN interns sound like they are getting similar to NMW so fair enough, that sort of intern is fine, and they are learning something as well. A lot of young people live in student type accommodation for cheapness, my DS does.
The ones I don't agree with are the unpaid ones.

Another example of where something is genuinely a training opportunity and voluntary work would be something like an unpaid student teacher placement. You can't leave the class to be solely taught by the student teacher; they still need the support of a properly qualified member of staff. Take away student, you still have properly qualified member of staff in class to do role.

Thanks moving that's an interesting definition, it can sometimes be a blurry line what's essential and what's not, I'm thinking of the things I did as a volunteer, I guess in things like health care it's where you draw that line as to what constitutes a good enough standard of care.

A good test would be: when you take away the unpaid labour what happens? Business as usual? Or a gap that needs to be filled?

I like the trade union saying "a decent days pay for a decent days work".

I think internships can work well. My friends daughter dropped out of uni after two years, as she decided the course was not right for her. She gets no support from her parents, and has been employed in an internship which happens alongside a college course where she studies for a qualification. Digital media within the fashion industry. She is a resourceful girl, and manages to get paid for blogs as a freelance writer. She is paid little, but takes evening and weekend shifts in a fashion store. She has just been offered a full time position in her company at a very good salary.

I think we have to recognize that we cannot pander to and pamper our kids as they grow up, and that the experience of working hard, being ambitious, standing on your own to feet, being resourceful and not expect to live in a palace and drink champagne is very valuable. I think every adult should look back at living at less than decent standards (but still safe) and little money, to ground them. Certainly politicians, Eton boys and the like, should be forced to do this for some time as part of their education, to gain a good understanding of many aspects of life.

1k per month is good as far as interns go. It is not so much about parental backing, but being resourceful and unspoiled, for a short time in your life.

I remember on one Yr 11 Work Experience thread a mother complaining that her ds would not be paid !

moving - where does that put people like national trust guides who take people round properties? the property opens without them but the visitor experience is not the same.
or conservation work? basically without volunteers far fewer species are surveyed, far fewer trees planted etc.
many people wanting paid work in conservation or in heritage do these volunteer roles first...

At least with the National Trust you are helping a worthwhile cause. It however doesn't get away from the fact that it can only be done by those whose parents support them.
I can see why people like it if they can afford it- it cuts out many that might be very serious competition.

I really don't think they feel exploited - they feel like it's an opportunity.

I'm sure that's the case Justine but it's not really the point. I'm sure all the starry-eyed young things doing internships in fashion and PR for months on end are pleased with the opportunity too, but that doesn't make it right for those who can't afford to do that. As it happens, I don't think £1000 a month is too shabby as these things go so you're all right

Yes, whether or not people feel exploited is not really the yardstick. Lots of women didn't used to feel exploited when they were paid less than a man for the same work, because that was the way things were and most people just accepted it. It was still wrong, though.

museum well there would be no guides and people would have to go round by themselves and read the labels on stuff I expect.

"The visitor experience would not be the same" true, but there would still be a visitor and an experience. It just wouldn't be as good but it would still be possible. The guides are a bonus, not a necessity.

I think you've answered your own question with the other example museumum. Fewer things would happen. But it would still be at a minimum level, just not an enhanced.

My point is about necessity (work that should be paid) and unnecessary* work that is offered voluntarily.

*NB I am not saying without value. So much volunteer work is so very valuable. Like my own voluntary work :)

Most NT guides retired. They are doing voluntary work- very different.

So MN "interns" (seemingly "workers" or "employees" under employment law) are paid minimum wage? Seems fair enough if so.

I have a decent amount of experience with this having just put a stop to unpaid internships in my company (glam media company). Fwiw, my views are:

• whilst it is hard to define theoretically what an internship vs a job is, in practice it's very easy. I've found in general anything over 3 months tends to be real, value-adding labour, as is anything that doesn't have an element of "shadowing" to it.
• in general any additional head we add requires management time and attention so we keep work experience to a minimum and look carefully at whether a particular type of work is really suitable for an intern/temp
• we do pay low (london living wage rather than min wage but still) but I don't see how people can complain about that given most of the people don't have any work experience. We don't keep people on those sorts of contracts for longer than a year (generally 6 months)
• I do think there needs to be a big cultural shift in students working during college in Britain. Certainly those who come out of the better universities are told they can't work during term time and I think this a mistake. In the us and Australia you wouldn't ever get a grad job if you didn't have a decent amount of work experience on your cv. I heard on the radio that the number of 16 and 17 yos working part time has halved over the last decade and that's a problem for me. In the interim, I think internships provide a good halfway house.

Angeltulips - although I agree with most of your post I am wary of comparisons to other countries. I lived in the US for a while and many students go at age 17/18 doing very general subjects for 2 years (a level equiv but not always) then they apply for specialised schools for a further 2 years min. So a degree is often 4 years plus at various levels. The whole system is geared to students working. The UK student system has been historically so different.