Unpaid internships

[Sunshine55]

Am I being unreasonable to think that unpaid internships should be banned. It seems a lot of companies just use this as an excuse for unpaid workers and once their contract has finished they get someone else in for unpaid work its just not fair.

Here is the link to the Sutton Trust research
www.suttontrust.com/researcharchive/internships/

I have a real issue with unpaid internships even though I could afford to support my DC through them when they get older (and we live in London so accomodation wouldn't be an issue). I couldn't have afforded to work without pay when I graduated and I assume a lot of young people are in a similar position now. It is selection by financial resources rather than ability.

PourquoiTuGachesTaVie - I always used to think that apprenticeships were something for the 16-18 year olds for when they left school, which is fair enough. Now they seem to have extended to lots of different jobs, as an excuse not to pay NMW for a year or two.

An apprenticeship is fair enough, they come out with a qualification and whatever the pay it beats the alternative of being at school for 2 more years and paying out £27000 in tuition fees before you start on living costs!

Unoaid internships are explorative and harm social mobility. A few weeks of unpaid work experience. Fine. Six months of unpaid internship? Not fine. Well, maybe it's fine if mummy and daddy are paying for your Central london house share and travel card and food and drink...

I was a bit disturbed when an acquaintance, discussing plans to set up her own business, came out with "And we'll need X many apprentices to make it viable."

I didn't like to ask whether she meant the apprentices' underpaid labour, or whether she'll also get paid by the government for taking apprentices. There certainly won't be jobs at the end of it: her business model has a ratio of at least 3 apprentices per paid person.

I don't think they're great but at the same time they shd be a massive red flag to anyone with a bit of common sense that industries like journalism, advertising, fashion etc where these things are common are not attractive industries unless you're the absolute dog's at what you do. If you want to do a career that millions of people want to do, wages will be lower than if you want to be (eg) an actuary.

This isn't about wages being lower because anyone can do the job.

This is about gatekeeping to sectors where, in some cases, there is good pay further up. Some areas of meedja being a case in point.

I agree unpaid internships should be banned. Work experience should be allowed, but with a maximum of 4 weeks. It is ridiculous to have a minimum wage but then say that some people can work for free within a profit-making organisation.

I think that apprenticeships are different though. You come out with an actual qualification. And it is better than degrees (or other formal training such as teacher training or nursing) where you have to pay to get the qualification.

On second thoughts, perhaps apprentices should have access to the student loan system if they need to supplement their income while working at less than minimum wage.

I disagree. well paid jobs are much fewer in media than in things like law, banking or chartered accountancy- you need to be much more exceptional in journalism to earn 500k than in accounting. Starting salaries in chartered accounting are definitely a living wage.

Yanbu internships are meant to only be unpaid when the work being done is not essential to the organisation but obviously most ignore that! In a way it's fair enough to get some work experience (which should have clear boundaries) whilst in training but most people on internships are trained!

That's why hmrc got done for having unpaid interns processing passports. Outrageous!

They are technically illegal unless the employer is a charity and meets certain criteria. But who has the money when unpaid to take a case to a tribunal or even the county court?

Awful practice.

I agree that well paid jobs are fewer in law than in banking (although we seem to have different ideas about what constitutes well-paid, if for you it starts at 500K...)

That in no way negates what I'm saying.

It isn't much consolation to the country that chartered accountancy pays a living wage, if industries with huge influence over the state of the nation, like media and advertising, are dysfunctional.

Reducing it to the individual level - that people should make wiser job choices or should leave if they don't like it - is ignoring the problem.

Frankly I don't care if eel-basket-making requires a 10-year unpaid internship. It doesn't have any discernible impact on country. Media, politics, etc, do.

In France, where my Dd is currently doing an internship or "Stage" as part of her language degree course in her year abroad, interns are paid but below the minimum wage. It is set in legislation as below.

The regulations around ‘Stages’ and remunerations are strict in France. The law currently states that the lowest wage should be no less than 30 percent of France’s minimum wage, known as the SMIC. That equates to €436 a month.

It is not enough to pay her living costs but it does help as there are also erasmus fees paid to the students. They also contribute half of her travel card costs.

If interns are considered to be gaining experience rather than contributing to the company (though in Dd's case they seem to be contributing quite a lot to the company as well), perhaps this type of legislation requiring interns to be paid at least 30% or indeed 50% of the minimum wage would be a good idea in this country as well.

Meh

well-paid jobs are fewer in law MEDIA than in banking

YANBU. Worked my arse off for £5 a day. Didnt even cover travel. A job came up at the end of my time, and they didnt even give it to me even though I would have been frickin awesome. Fuckers.

Internships are truly necessary for students and young professionals. There is no way a company will burden themselves with somebody with no work ethics of knowledge of workplace behavior and work responsibility. You mostly learn that during an internship, between 2 to 8 months.
The first two to three months, most interns are not adding any value to the company, and they are for the intern's benefit rather than to the manager.
Afterward, a good intern becomes a strong collaborator.
I really feel that internship are necessary, but should be paid enough that you can actually live frugally on it, or with only minimal outside help.

Really? I wouldn't want to employ someone who took 8 months to learn how to conduct themselves in an office.

Unless they'd spent the last 11+ years being brought up by apes or something. Rather than turning up in school at the right time, wearing the right clothes, with the right books, having done the right work. As is more normal.

Yes, there's some adjustment needed between school and work cultures, but frankly there is between different workplaces. I would expect a new person to take a little while to reach their maximum effectiveness and efficiency, but that's a long way from being a burden on the company.

YABU. If you banned unpaid internships a huge chunk of this country's MH services would collapse.

Becoming an accredited psychotherapist requires countless hours of clinical experience, and the only way to build up these hours is to volunteer for one of the many charities that offers counselling services. All the clinical placements I've ever encountered (I am a trained psychotherapist) are unpaid. In effect they are unpaid internships.

You may say it's a disgrace that NHS mental health services are propped up by free labour like this, but that's just how it is. If you're poor and suffering from mental health problems, often your only chance of getting to see a counsellor will be in this sort of setting. Most counsellors you might be referred to via a GP will be working unpaid. Most people don't know this.

If you banned unpaid work experience, most low-cost or free counselling services would cease to exist as they simply wouldn't be able to afford to pay volunteers. So the ban might bring in a measure of justice for young people trying to start out in life, but it would come at the expense of the many poor people in this country who suffer from mental health problems. If that's what you want, go ahead and campaign to get internships banned.

I agree with everything Pausing has said on this thread.

Internships were discussed today on R4 You and Yours, it will be on the iPlayer later.

Unpaid internships are not new. I did one 13 years ago, helping me get some practical experience over and above my very academic philosophy degree.

Was a huge help in getting a job, I was asked many more questions about my experience as an intern than my 3 years at university.

Well, first two months, they learn about the company, its rhythm, the IT, the tools needed for the job, and do they first tasks with supervision.
Then they perform them alone and efficiently for the next 4 months.
The last months are used for them to take initiatives and take on projects to completion. This is how you differentiate between an intern you want to hire and another.