Do we need to be cruel to be kind with my elderly grandfather

[CountryMummy1]

My mum is my grandad's carer. He is in his 80's and had his leg amputated at the beginning of the year due to cancer. Obviously it was a very traumatic time for everyone as we honestly thought we would lose him. However, he pulled through and has made a great recovery. He now has a prosthetic leg and can drive, walk, go shopping, basically everything he could do before. We are very proud of him.

However..... he has always been a bit precious about himself and a complete fusspot. After his operation he led my nan a merry dance. She had to make him a homemade roast dinner every single night as that's all he will eat, fetch and carry for him as he cannot wait for anything, and generally fuss with him as he can't bear to be in the slightest discomfort for even a minute. He doesn't know the meaning of the sentence 'putting up with it'. He has always been like this, although worse over the last few years and very much worse since his operation.

My nan became absolutely exhausted, despite us all helping her everyday and she developed jaundice. She was very poorly and hospitalised before finally being told that she had very advanced pancreatic cancer. She died of a catastrophic stroke in June this year.

My granddad is now on his own. He lived with my parents for a few months after nan died and he is always welcome to go back there anytime. My mom, myself and my sister only live 10 minutes away from him so we see him every day - we either go to him or he spends the day with us.

However, it is now my mom who is exhausted. She had a meltdown yesterday and ended up screaming in the kitchen, I am so worried about her. My granddad now treats my mum like he did my nan. He relies on her for everything even though he is perfectly capable of cooking his own dinner or getting his own shopping. He also makes life so hard for all of us with his constant fussing. If I ever tell anyone about what he does, they can't believe it.

For example, he has one of us going round his house almost every day to change his central heating settings as he can't do it himself. He keeps changing his mind over what time he wants the heat to come on/off. He phoned me a midnight last night and had me go over as he had fiddled with the settings (yet again!) and couldn't turn it off. I was fast asleep as I have a 2 year old and an 8 month old.

Another example is that we have spent 8 months arranging for him to have a new disabled bathroom fitted through social services. As I'm sure you know, it's a difficult, long winded process. The builders were coming yesterday to start it. He sent them away when they arrived at 8.50am as he had a bit of a cold and didn't feel up to it, even though mom was getting there at 9am to supervise them. We now have to spend hours on the phone sorting it out again. He also constantly cancels doctor's appointments we have made if he can't be bothered to go.

He has suddenly turned into a very selfish man, not the wonderful caring granddad I have loved all my life. He never asks how the children are. It was my birthday on Sunday, mom got me a card and present from him, he never even wished me happy returns. He doesn't seem to care that he is making life so hard for us all. I am dreading Christmas as I know he's going to ruin it for my 2 year old who is really looking forward to it. Last year we didn't have a Christmas as Grandad was diagnosed on Christmas Eve and I just feel so guilty that my daughter is missing out.

My sister wants to give him a telling off and explain how difficult he is making life for my mom. She also thinks we should stop 'babying' him so much and make him do things for himself. I am reluctant to as I feel so sorry for him. I'm sure he's depressed but he'd never admit to it or see anyone about it. He doesn't socialise anymore and only sees us.

Any advice? We so need it!!

And yeah, my Dad got a bit like this towards the end; he couldn't see past his own needs. He had had poor health he wasn't reconciled to, for years, and kept having more health scares and probably, he was scared (including scared of dying, I should think) and alone.

I was a bit 'harsh' perhaps, as I didn't have the insight at the time as to why he seemed so selfish. And I can remember how hard it was to talk to him about it, he just 'blanked'. But I had to look after myself /OH/kids too. (OH had health problems too at the time, and my kids were young then)

I hope you can be bossy: perhaps that way he will feel cared for, without him having to destroy your mother's health and everyone's sanity and patience?

You really do have my sympathy.

Posted too soon! The christmas day may have ben subduded, but in our family a sad diagnosis would have been all the more reason to be together and celebrate family.

DO Not let him ruin christmas for your DD this year. If he would want to, or try to, that is unbelievable.

The holiday that is coming up is your perfect opportunity to make a change - make a plan in advance, get everyone in on it then TELL grandad the plan - a cleaner, food delivered from Wiltshire arm foods and you will call in for an hour every few days at a time that suits your childen's needs.

It won't be easy, but it is essential. Time for you to woman up, OP.

Finally - re: the driving. Don't do that. Don't be weak. He doesn't value his independence if he lets all and sundry prioritise his adult needs over those of their dependent children. That's bullshit. So get him assessed. I have a toddler. What if he crashes his car into mine and hurt her? What if he ran a red light and killed a child? He's incredibly selfish. Do your duty regarding his dangerous actions.

You need to consider your needs and your children's needs as well as his.

Work out what you can reasonably manage to do while your DM is away and tell him beforehand that this will be the maximum. Give him the option of you arranging carers to pick up the slack if he would like that but make it clear that, if he sends them away, you won't be able to rush over to do whatever they were going to do.

When the time comes he will probably ask more of you or send the carers away. If he does, only go over if you think he is genuinely at risk. If he misses a meal because he sends the carers away, him might just get hungry enough to make a sandwich himself.

This is being cruel to be kind. He needs his family to be around him, helping him with things he genuinely can't do. If he runs you all into the ground by treating you like skivvies, he will end up in a care home because there is no-one left to look after him.

It sounds like you need to have a discussion with him about aged care. It's said that 30% of carers die before the one they care for, mainly due to the stress. Take your phone off the hook after a certain time or screen calls. We had similar issues with my grandfather (including midnight calls to go to hospital for what turned out to be panic attacks). Things have got so much better since he's settled into an assisted living situation (although for a long time it was going to be the end of him etc). Losing our car to a prang also helped because it takes us an hour each way by public transport. He had and still has plenty of money to get help but he felt we ought to do it - although to be honest he's always had the personality you described of your grandfather. Now we visit fortnightly or thereabouts (bit less of late due to concert rehearsals etc)

My dad got a bit like this and he didn't have dementia, I think some older people see their lives becoming so restricted in what they can no longer do, they get quite scared, and also lose awareness of other people's needs. My Dad would always back down if I said I could not come because of my children though.

My Mum did have dementia, and right up to the time where she it was so severe she could not function, she was kind and considerate and had to be stopped from doing jobs (eg cooking) because she was a danger. She was forever trying to get in the kitchen though, trying to do something. So it does not always change your personality.

My point in all this, is that your Granddad does not necessarily have dementia, but I think he has just got more self centred as he has got older. It is worth asking for a dementia assessment though, but be warned, the memory clinic requires several assessments, months apart, to see if there is any change. It is unusual that they will give a diagnosis on the first appointment, unless the dementia is so severe, which you would have noticed by now. So you would have to get him to there more than once by whatever means.

No other advice, but I share your pain. Like so many others, been there and it is very hard.

Actually Whois - there are proven benefits to the elderly owning pets. It doesn't sound to me like this man has dementia, it sounds like he's depressed, lonely and becoming cantankerous.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10976567/Study-finds-life-in-the-old-dog-for-pet-owners.html

By all means get a dementia assessment but I think that he is likely to need something other than his misery to focus on. It doesn't have to be a pet but it does have to be something.

Also, he's elderly not an idiot, you would be perfectly ok to tell him off for being irritating but come up with solutions as well so it's not just a barrage.

One more suggestion to add to all the wise counsel above: can he be helped to feel more independent by being asked for help with anything - can he mend things for you or the kids? If he is mobile (and clearly there are issues with driving..) Can he run errands for any of you? Can he read to a great-granchchild/hear one read? (stuff that's genuinely useful/worthwhile I mean)

Not suggesting for a moment you should compromise on cutting out the unecessary/ridiculous stuff as per posters above, but maybe he hasn't been in a position to receive a 'thank you' for a while, and if he can feel more of an 'agent' in life, might perhaps nudge him into a fractionally better place?

Your grandad doesn't need a telling off but you all need to be blunt with him he needs to stop leaning on you all so heavily. There is no excuse for calling you at midnight.
You need to stop indulging him like going over at midnight for something so petty. If he cancels something like the Gardner don't then go and do the work for him. He does need to learn to put up.

He has a lot of company but if he's still lonely despite that then I would suggest assisted living or a care home. I would suggest he not permantly move in with you mum she sounds at her wits end already. I would worry about your mothers health if he had her on demand 24/7.

A dog is a silly idea for a man that refuses to take responsibility for himself his family have enough to do without caring for it. And then the dog would need to be rehomed very cruel to the dog.

You have my sympathies, I have been on the care roundabout too much in the last 3 years.

Having bad things happen to you is not an excise to treat everyone else badly.

You need to implement boundaries and do so unitedly, we did this with my now dead Grandmother, she hated it but it at least made my life bearable as prior to that she was being unbelievably demanding. She continued to be difficult until she died but I only saw her/ did things for her on my terms so it was bearable.

I think unless people have been in this situation they don't always get it. And the selfish behaviour exhibited is really unpleasant to see in your loved one and, in my case at least, has really tainted my memories of the people concerned.

Hope all the responses have helped OP. I'm in a similar situation but now my daughter is very very ill I cannot leave the house at all so my dad is left much to his own devices. Sad but fair. Wiltshire farm foods are great and the drivers have a little chat and a cuppa too. GP will help. Social services will help. So will all the Army type charities/ organisations. GP can get his driving licence revoked. He can use taxis can't he? If he needs help he has to learn to accept it. It's crap but it's life. Asking him to do stuff us a good idea but my dad is too frail now to do anything. He has an alarm thingy round his neck but loathe to use it u less an emergency (that's what it's for!) so he thought falling on bedroom flood and being unable to get up for 14 hours wasn't an emergency and ended up in hospital almost dead. You need to train him NOW!

Interesting idea from one poster that perhaps he thinks he needs a reason to call you, and fears you won't go round unless something needs fixing. Maybe you need to talk to him about this - as well as the rest of it i.e. not driving you and your Mum into breakdowns. And leaving him instructions re. adjusting heating or whatever. AND finding out why he sends gardeners/carers/builders away - what's his reasoning?

MissPenelope With respect, dementia affects different people in different ways. There are specific variants. It's my specialist area in my career and I know a fair bit, so please be careful as it's just your experience. People with very early or undiagnosed dementia often experience a lot of stigma and discrimination.

OP, I'm not saying he does have frontotemporal dementia but that it is a consideration and I would urge you to have him see his GP and consider a referral to a social worker.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to read some of these replies to my mum tomorrow and we need to have a chat about our next steps as we can't go on like this

I've spent the evening in tears. I am trying to settle my almost 3 year old DD in nursery for 2 mornings a week and it is not going well. Today was our 3rd visit and when I tried to make the move into the corridor she was hysterical. I ended up staying the whole time so my poor mum had to look after my baby all morning. Grandad turned up at midday saying that someone needed to go round and turn his heating down and that he was now too hot. He also has a nasty cold so was worse than usual.

From personal experience - try to sneak the initial dementia assessment under the radar by making it a GP appointment officially for physical stuff as far as he's concerned but with GP prewarned about the real reason. Quick chat about how he's getting on sans leg, moving onto being "too tired" to manage to sit in the house when the builders are there and then a segue into the little matter of a bit of memory loss (even if it turns out to be the start of Alzheimers with bells on, just call it "memory loss" for now). It might take a couple of visits to break the ice enough to get him around to the notion of going for the proper assessment but get the ball rolling now. Even if it's "just" depression then a decent diagnosis and treatment should help a lot.

He does actually have all of his independence back physically. He is very active and can do everything he did before he lost his leg....he just chooses not to..or he can't cope with doing it anymore

In all fairness, op...he doesn't NEED to do it anymore, because he has you all doing it for him!!

He made his way to your mums, yet he can't turn his heating down? Bull, sorry! He is off loading the simplest of tasks to you all at stupid hours of the day all because you have allowed him to.

As a pp said, stop it. Stop it now.

He's got you, and trying to get you stay, into the FOG (fear-obligation-guilt) cycle.

I haven't got a lot of advice for you OP but hope you find a workable solution for your family as you can't go on like this. Bless you X

Don't get him a dog btw. Dogs live for 15+ years, your grandad probably won't so a young dog is just going to turn into another millstone for somebody else. An old dog is more likely to have develop health problems necessitating vet visits and medication. Also, if he gets dementia, he'll probably forget to feed it or overfeed it (I'm a vet- we quite often see fat small breed dogs with pancreatitis due to being fed loads of human food by their owners- involves lots of abdominal pain and vomiting, often repeat stints in the clinic on a drip for days, keeps recurring if dog not fed appropriate diet).
Not saying that old people or dementia patients shouldn't have dogs, but it's often hard on the dog and the rest of the family if the family are already stretched and aren't really really invested in getting the dog, looking after most of its needs and taking it on as their own at the drop of a hat if necessary, which could be six months, six years or whenever.

Why can't he deal with his own heating?

I'm going through a similar thing with my mum following a stroke, the lovely caring selfless lady she once was has become a bit of a self centered old bag. I was running myself ragged and my health has definitely suffered.

You need to contact his social worker urgently and tell them how you are all feeling and get a care package and helpline put in place. He will probably have to pay for this but your health, sanity and relationship is worth it. Could he go into respite care while your mum is away? If she is registered as his main carer then the social worker will help arrange this, and other periods of respite care, and a proper carers package for your mum.
It's ok to feel like this and it's worth ringing SS and saying that you are finding it hard to cope. I did and was stunned by how quickly they acted and how supportive they have been. They have done this before and I found that when mums social worker pops round and says I'm doing a good job it really makes things easier.

You are all doing a great job. It isn't easy and you are brilliant but don't be alone. There is lots of help out there and SS will be great at putting you onto it.

Antidepressants from the doctor if he is depressed might make a big difference. Selfishness is often a sign of depression.

all I can say is that I feel your pain. my dad lost both legs and had copd, he was always a selfish man but in his last 2 years he drove my mum into the ground she is of the generation that you did everything for your man (sugar in tea and stirring it fgs) I had many a row with him over how he treated her but he just could not see he was in any way wrong. mum got to the point where she was on anti depressants and messed up her pills so much she was quite ill, lost the plot for a while and dad had to go into respite. he came home for a while but she was really struggling to cope but then he became quite ill and passed away. its awful to say but for mums sake I was relieved even though I grieved for my dad but he was killing her. It is so hard to watch what a functional albeit old fashioned relationship become untenable as people grow older. of course now she won't hear a word against him, #saintedfather even though he nearly was the death of her

If he's fiddling with the heating, gaffer tape the thermostat over.
And you do need to be firm with him otherwise you will all burn out - being phoned between 9pm and 9am (or whatever) is not acceptable except in a real emergency. You could get him an emergency pendant, register your mobile number with the emergency people and unplug/silence house phones at night.

My parents are a lot more frail than your grandad, and if I was local dad would try to get me to do more - but actually it does him good to go to the shops on his scooter, use the volunteer transport to hospital etc.