WWYD - witnessing potential child abuse in public?

[Lilwelshyrs]

Saturday - busy London cafe in the pouring rain. DH and I are sat outside under the canopy as there is nowhere to sit down inside. Next to us is a family - mum, dad ds and dd.
DH and I are chatting away when our attention is pulled to a small commotion to our right. I look round and the dad has grabbed his DS by what looks like his collar and is very aggressively telling him off for being silly in the rain. The boy has been lifted off the floor and looks very uncomfortable. He's approx 7/8 years old. Dad is saying things along the lines of "how many times do we have to tell you to stop it?". Mum just stands not looking.
Then DD sticks her leg out into a stream of water dropping down from the canopy. Dad flips and doesn't exactly shout, but instead goes right into her face and tells her off - not a simple "you don't do that - you will get wet and cold"... It was nasty. DS is crying.
My DH and I make a loud comment on how there is no need to be like that with children - we didn't intervene.
Then Mum walks away with DS and dad and DD are left in silence. DD is about 4 years old. When mum and DS come back, it's clear he's been crying. I hear him saying "dad really hurt me".
Dad sort of apologises but follows it with a "you deserved it" type of comment.

DH and I were in total shock as the family walked away.
That was Saturday afternoon and I have been wracking my brains with what I should have done.

Should I have done anything?
Things ive read say that I should alert authorities and keep the children in my sight whilst waiting for them to appear... Others say that you are supposed to say something. Frankly, I was scared of jumping in... Should I have done? I was in such shock at the time and I've never come across it in public before.

I have been on the recieving end of aggressive verbal abuse as a child - at the hands of my step father. Neither my dad or my mum stepped in out of fear. So I know what it's like.

What would you do?

I think use of physical force to control a child is much less damaging than emotional manipulation.

By that token - the OP might not ever use force against another person - but she thinks it's fine to loudly judge a stranger?

What purpose does loud commenting serve? It doesn't protect the child - but it does humiliate the adult.

We could say the same if a man reacted in the same way to his wife

We could question is he usually abusive how could we know is it out of character even if it is the behaviour is very aggressive and frightening and should never be deemed as ok

He may not be an abusive father but his actions at that point in time were very aggressive and I am dismayed at how many people are actually saying well it's none of your business how do you know what's going on precociously the op does not know what is going on at home but she is aware of what she saw

What would I do?

I would remember the words of a very kind lady to me in a Tesco once when DD, then aged about 3 was behaving abominably. I am sure that I have posted about this before but I think it is worth repeating. DD was shouting, winging loudly, trying to climb out of the trolley, hitting and scratching me and throwing things around in the trolley. Nearly an hour of this behaviour while I attempted the weekly shop and I was ready to blow.

I reached the till in a really frazzled state, and it was then that DD started knocking things off the conveyor belt. I turned angrily to shout at her, and as I did, a very wise lady quickly said, "oh what beautiful eyes your Daughter has" I stopped and looked at her, recognising that the intervention was a facade, but I knew it was a kind one and the anger in me dissipated. She went on to tell me how she had been listening to us all around the shop, and that DD had had her in stitches with her comments (and no doubt my increasingly grumpy replies), and as she spoke I remembered that DD was 3, that she was usually well behaved, and that I love her more than anything. That lady's kindness saved me from from losing it, and instead I gave DD a hug and we went home friends.

It is a kindness that I have never forgotten, and I try hard to pay it forward. Sometimes just a smile of solidarity to a stressed parent is enough, sometimes it's a kind word. But I would try to intervene with kindness.

The analogy to a wife doesn't work.

As a parent, you are required to keep your child within society's expectations for safety and behaviour.

No one is going to call social services on DH if I choose to go puddle jumping in my socks - nor is DHs boss going to hold me accountable if DH decides he can't be bothered to go into work today.

Why not because we are talking about aggression and what is and what is not acceptable

A child jumping in puddles after being told not to many many times is not in danger it is annoying very annoying as a parent you may feel you have been pushed to your limits who has not felt that way but you keep your aggression that you may feel under control as we do when interacting with all other adults and children

I think people have a natural parenting 'palette'. Some people are quicker to reach for physical intervention - some people go for verbal intervention. I don't agree he prevailing feeling that one is intrinsically more abusive than the other.

I really don't like seeing kids being manipulated by very wordy parents.

In the scenario of the OP, my DM might have gone on about how sad I was making her sad by playing in the rain, or pointing out that there were other DC in the café sitting so nicely, and looking at me wondering about the naughty girl making a fuss. Then she might have started rifling about for withdrawal of privileges in the week ahead.

To the OP, it would have looked absolutely fine - but to me it comes with complex emotional undertones completely unmerited by straightforward mischief. I find the 'wordy' approach has just as much danger of abuse of power as the physical approach. I much preferred a straightforward assertive 'STOP NOW'.

I feel really inadequate as a parent reading some of these responses

I have never understood the 'if a man did this to his wife it would be abuse' comment.
If my dh bent down to my level and told me in a firm but kind voice why I must never ever do something again, it would look distinctly creepy and you'd be entitled to wonder if it was an emotionally abusive situation.
Conversely, if he grabbed me physically to stop me stepping into a road because a car was coming that I hadn't seen and he accidentally did it too hard and it hurt, I would recognise that he didn't mean to hurt me and it was for a good reason. If he did it to our child, however, they would very probably be crying 'Daddy hurt me!' for the next few minutes, regardless of the fact that in this situation it was in no way abusive.

'Lilwel - do you have any kids'

What exactly does that have to do with anything? Are you only able to exercise judgement about how children should be treated if you are a parent? I'm not a parent but I have 15 years experience of working with children - am I allowed an opinion? People on here fall over themselves to excuse just about anything a parent does to a child and it really makes me sick.

OP, trust your gut. It sounds like the incident you saw left you feeling shaken and disturbed and I'm not surprised. It sounds like the dad was physically agressive with his son and the boy said it had hurt him - that sounds pretty worrying to me.

And despite the response you've had from many on this thread, I think you should feel proud that you are able to exercise your judgement and not just turn the other way while making excuses for crap and agressive parenting because, oh well, mustn't judge I would guess your comments were because you felt you should do something to stand up for that child, but were too shocked to know what else to do.

If its any consolation, I have asked our Safeguarding lead at work for advice on how to respond to situations like this in public and never been given a clear answer, so don't feel bad for not knowing how to react.

Freudian a child on a daytrip to London getting soaked through is at risk of getting cold and ill before their parents can get them home to get dry. If there is a complicating factor, such as asthma...

And I am not convinced the father in the OP was aggressive. He lifted the child by the shirt and spoke to him in a not-nice tone of voice. He didn't shout, he didn't hit, he didn't shake the child. "How many times do we have to tell you to stop it" sounds pretty mild.

Oh me too. Just had a hideous weekend w ds2 when the usual bag of parenting techniques: clear expectations, calm reminders to simmer down, firmly getting down to his level and restating the rules, escort to the hall to calm down etc etc didn't work and I ended up dragging him to his room whilst shouting at him.

But, you know, if I'd stopped at ds1, I'd be feeling pretty smug about my parenting too and would probably be 'shocked' at bad parents losing it with their children.

Ds2 is apparently a lot like me at the same age

Lotta - I think people are trying to put the situation into context rather than having a go per se. Of course your opinion is valid because safeguarding and child protection is everyone's responsibility. But you can't understand the situation from a parent's perspective because you are not a parent - which is why the OP was being asked if she was (I think).

I imagine your Safeguarding lead can't give you a definitive answer about what should be done in that situation because there isn't one. You could be wrong about what you're seeing. You could put a child at risk. You could put yourself at risk.

Parents hurt their children - we know that and of course we have to be vigilant. But, parents also lose it from time to time and that's not about being an abuser. We can challenge without blaming.

curlyweasel, you're right, there isn't a definitive answer, and lots does depend on context. However, what the OP was doing was seeing the situation from the child's perspective, something a lot of parents on here struggle to do apparently. I find the rush to dismiss possibly abusive situations and minimise aggressive behaviour on here extremely worrying.

Lotta - I don't think people were dismissing or minimising... justifying and empathising maybe? That said - yes, we do have to look through a child's eyes in these situations when we can.

Worst thing for me as a child was when my Mum cried. It made me feel scared and very ashamed.

If we are looking through a child's eyes - should we round on everyone who has ever burst into tears in front of their DC?

5 - if it was constant/sustained, yes. That was my point - context is everything.

And I would say the same about a father lifting a DC by the clothes and speaking 'aggressively'.

Every day? Really not great. A one off under pressure? Understandable.

ExtraWickedDevil

that is JUST the sort of thing I was meaning in my post upthread.

I think it is about not knowing if it is a one off parent losing temper/frazzled to point of exhaustion OR an indicator of more serious problems with the parenting.

Unless you are there, AND can make a snap decision on gut instinct- it is impossible to tell.

But YOU CAN make it 'better/easier' for the parent to calm down - defuse the situation if you like - which will inevitably help the child - in your example of a stressy trip round the supermarket

but also in a situation where a parent is actually behaving wrongly to a child.

More kind interventions would offer support to stressed parents but also let those who ARE behaving wrongly - and their children trapped in it - know that others are seeing their behaviour and calling them on it.

Not sure if I should be posting a response... I'm a bit concerned im going to get my head bitten off :-/

What have I learnt? Not to comment... I apologise and I honestly don't do it as a habit. I'm not judging every parent I meet and most of you who are accusing me of being judgemental are just assuming and judging me - right?
I have never ever made any sort of comment about anyones parenting skills. And this scenario I was faced with on Saturday left me feeling worried and concerned.

I saw the child's feet come off the ground. He was lifted off of the ground by his dad. The dad, whilst he wasn't shouting in the boys face, was very aggressive and he had clearly lost his temper. It was very different to a quiet "I've told you three times already not to do that".

I know we all lose our temper with our kids and I know that it's even worse when you're out in public, but what I witnessed was by far the worst public telling off ive ever seen.
I'm not about to think that everyone is the worst parent if they are telling their child off - I know they test us all and push our buttons and sometimes we can lose our temper when they're screaming the place down or are jumping in puddles. But like I said, ive never experienced that type of passive aggressive nastiness from the dad.

My anecdote about verbal abuse happening to me as a child was merely to point out that I recognise it! My mum didn't see it when it happened, but looking from the outside, other people could see it.

Also I am not about to call the authorities on every parent who tells their child off in public - LOL. Children are abused regularly - physically and emotionally. Sometimes it's clearer when a child is abused physically, but how do you know when it's emotional and verbal abuse? It's just as bad as physical abuse :(

So from what I have read, you shouldn't intervene? I totally understand it was a snapshot of their lives in those 10 minutes, but what if it really is abuse?

Also for those who are accusing me of using the word "abuse" too loosely, I would like to point out that I have said "potential abuse?" Not "ohmygod I just saw a man abuse a child in public".

OP I'm glad you came back. I'm so sorry that you have given such a hard time. From what I read it was clearly a case of a parent going beyond normal chastisement.

I think you were right to intervene. I worry that others who are reading this in future won't intervene to help a child and defuse a situation. Often just knowing that you are being watched is enough to break the atmosphere. It also sends a message to the child that what is happening is wrong. Never underestimate how much this can help a child.

Please OP, trust your instinct. If you feel what you are seeing isn't right, then you absolutely should interfere, where it is safe for you.

Consequently you might just find that when the evening posters join that you get a different reply. It never ceases to amaze me the difference in how an OP is worded and the time that it's posted affects the types of responses you get.

Lilwelshyrs - No, you SHOULD intervene.

Not by calling SS but by speaking to parent and child.

Thanks eternal :)
I posted last night because I was struggling getting to sleep because the issue was on my mind.

It's a genuine concern I have and was genuinely curious as to what people would do in the same scenario.

Will bear in mind the difference between late eve and daytime posts :)

Thank you to those who have been helpful in their responses :)

Mindreader - what do you say? X

You should challenge politely (being passive-aggressive is pretty undermining and offensive imho).

You shouldn't assume/state (potential) child abuse without more evidence/information.

Sounds horrible to me, and agree with the PP who said that the Mum's reaction (i.e. not stepping in - shocked - to intervene) says it all.

She's clearly used to seeing her dcs abused by this man to my mind.

I always say something when I see parents abusing their kids in public - ANY smacking or physical chastisement, or anything OTT like this situation.

It doesn't make you a sticky beak. We all have a duty to try to protect others, especially children.

Equally I would always step in to tell off (calmly but firmly) kids that were misbehaving in public -i.e. bullying other children at the swings, or being inconsiderate to other passengers on transport.