WWYD - witnessing potential child abuse in public?

[Lilwelshyrs]

Saturday - busy London cafe in the pouring rain. DH and I are sat outside under the canopy as there is nowhere to sit down inside. Next to us is a family - mum, dad ds and dd.
DH and I are chatting away when our attention is pulled to a small commotion to our right. I look round and the dad has grabbed his DS by what looks like his collar and is very aggressively telling him off for being silly in the rain. The boy has been lifted off the floor and looks very uncomfortable. He's approx 7/8 years old. Dad is saying things along the lines of "how many times do we have to tell you to stop it?". Mum just stands not looking.
Then DD sticks her leg out into a stream of water dropping down from the canopy. Dad flips and doesn't exactly shout, but instead goes right into her face and tells her off - not a simple "you don't do that - you will get wet and cold"... It was nasty. DS is crying.
My DH and I make a loud comment on how there is no need to be like that with children - we didn't intervene.
Then Mum walks away with DS and dad and DD are left in silence. DD is about 4 years old. When mum and DS come back, it's clear he's been crying. I hear him saying "dad really hurt me".
Dad sort of apologises but follows it with a "you deserved it" type of comment.

DH and I were in total shock as the family walked away.
That was Saturday afternoon and I have been wracking my brains with what I should have done.

Should I have done anything?
Things ive read say that I should alert authorities and keep the children in my sight whilst waiting for them to appear... Others say that you are supposed to say something. Frankly, I was scared of jumping in... Should I have done? I was in such shock at the time and I've never come across it in public before.

I have been on the recieving end of aggressive verbal abuse as a child - at the hands of my step father. Neither my dad or my mum stepped in out of fear. So I know what it's like.

What would you do?

I have pulled my 3.5 up by her clothes before (grabbed the chest area). It must look awful to a passerby. But she has had about 5 pulled elbows (one even happened in A&E when we were waiting to be seen for something else) and once a possible fracture. So we can't pull her by the arms. If she's having a tantrum somewhere unsafe or about to run off near a road, I don't have many options but to use her clothes.

DH has lifted DC 'by their collar' - both in anger and in jest.
Nice bloke you got there 5children. Does he try the same stunt with people his own size? My guess: no. Bullies usually don't.

Well no - because he couldn't lift someone his own size .

Do you go around lifting people your own size? Or do you not lift your children?

Are you the perfect parent op. You saw a very tiny a snapshot of what seems like parenting.
Read some threads here where parents have told off their kids for so and so. You have absolutely no idea what the parents have been through the day as well. It's very dangerous you tossing around 'child abuse' claims when you know nothing.
Either get involved in the situation than behave like an arse with PA comments which achieved nothing.

Not by their collar in anger - no. It would scare and intimidate them, neither of which i would want to do to my child.

Yes - and back in the real world....

'Anger' in the sense of opposite of fun. So he would use the hold to play helicopters - but also to whoosh the child away from mischief if they were being naughty. Either way - the DC usually ends up snickering.

I would hold the child under two armpits to play with them/remove them from mischief - but DHs bigger physical size means he is strong enough to do alternative lifts safely.

Agree with the posters saying its just a snapshot - I think if you had just seen me dragging my daughter by the wrist in John Lewis crockery department you would have thought I was a shit mum :( I hope I am not, and I am sure I am not abusive although on bad days it feels as though I am.

I think parents forget how bad it looks when an adult loses their temper, much more aggressive and nasty then it feels 'in the moment'. But its not the lookers on who have lost perspective. It IS the parent. If a passer by had said anything, even passive aggressively, when I have lost my temper I would have been mortified. And I hope looked at my own behaviour. Maybe??

Our sympathies are with the adult often, and when a kid kicks off I do feel so sorry for other parents, having been there so often myself. That hot, awful embarrassment of a child being a complete pita. BUT our sympathies ought to be with the child surely, especially if there is physical stuff as they really are powerless.

The bit that would really have bothered me is the father putting his face right up to the 4yo girl's face and telling her off aggressively for something that was utterly trivial, after losing his rag with his son. Of course the daughter's behaviour may have been the straw breaking the camel's back but I find that a worrying sign.

Having said that, my children are 20 and 22 now. I can remember a few incidents in their early lives when my husband or I were at the end of our tether and got angry with them. I'm not proud of those times at all and still feel guilty, but I think (hope) they did no lasting damage to our relationship with our children, who seem to have turned out reasonably well.

I can also remember how utterly wearing those early years were and how embarrassing, as Jock says, it is when your children act up in public.

Not clear cut, is it?

By the same token DH does this peculiar somersault flips them onto the bed, carries them on his shoulders, makes them walk around 'wheelbarrow style', lets them 'surf' on his back at the pool and carries around newborns on one forearm.

My DC genuinely like the more physical way in which DH interacts with them.

I think Dads can get a bad rap for having a different parenting style to a typical woman. For me - I am made much more uncomfortable when I witness stuff that has shades of emotional abuse. I wince whenever I hear parents doing the "OK, we're leaving without you" tactic - I think that is far more upsetting than being yelled at for doing something stupid.

Remove (even if it is done abruptly) - explain (even if it is done more loudly than optimal) - move on.... It might have been their finest hour, but I think calling it 'abuse' is too strong.

When I was 5/6 my dear dad used to swing me round by the arms in the garden, I love love loved it and used to ask for more, is that child abuse? It would be by some on here.

he's no longer here now, and died a few years later but I still remember the rough and tumble fun we had

None of us were there, apart from the OP.

She is not criticising your parenting skills people! Nor saying people shouldn't tell their children off, or ever shout.

She's saying that:

1. He lifted his child off the ground by the collar, in anger. This is not normal.
2. The way he told him off wasn't normal parental frustration. She says "It was nasty" Her gut says something was wrong. She was there, not us.
3. The mother did nothing to stop him.
4. The DS said "Daddy really hurt me"

Yes OP I think you're right to be concerned about these children. Hopefully yo're wrong. But it doesn't sound right does it?

What you do I don't know I'm afraid.

That is not normal behaviour that is extremely aggressive behaviour of a parent that is using aggression to gain control

Would we accept a man doing this to his wife absolutely not

We all have enough at times we all shout a little too much at times this was aggressive

why should aggression towards children be ignored just because it's hard being a parent at times I do not support telling a parent off but I do feel it is right that at times something needs to be said it's difficult as our reaction is likely emotive

Lifting a child off the floor by his collar is abuse. And if he's prepared to do that in public I dread to think what he's doing in private. I sounds very much like my childhood and I can remember people silently watching the same things happen to me in public. That sort of thing is soul destroying for a child. I'm actually finding it quite upsetting that there are people on here who seem to think that it's normal and okay.

But you can't do anything now OP, you should have confronted him at the time and told him what he was doing was not okay. That happened a couple of times when I was a child and I wish it had happened more, then maybe my parents would have had to have faced up to the fact that what they did was not okay. As it was they wrote it off as a few cranks, but if every person who had seen them do it had challenged them maybe they would have had to face up to it. Staying quiet when you see this happen is just validating the abusers belief that what they're doing is okay.

Of course a child being swung round by their arms and enjoying it is not abusive behaviour no one would think it is

This is totally different how can you even compare the two

I agree with many PP. I think this was a parent at the end of their tether. My DS similar-ish age will behave in a very silly way impacting other people. So in a café, could do something that may cause a waiter/customer with hot drinks to trip. So yes I shout as the many times of asking quietly and politely for behaviour to stop are ignored. OP I do think you were passive aggressive.

Lots of people have pointed out that although it may have looked like lifting by the collar - it is likely that he was actually lifting by the clothes (since the collar would rip & strangle). So we have a child being lifted in an unconventional way and told not to play in the rain. In a tone of voice the OP didn't like. The OP did not report the father threatening the child or insulting the child. The child calmed down, and was able to assert himself without 'escalating' his parents anger.

I honestly believe that if the mother had disciplined the child - with her naturally quieter voice and less imposing physical presence - the OP would not have batted an eyelid - even though the DC perception would be the same.

My reading of the situation? They were out-of-towners who'd splashed some cash to take DC to theatre or museum or similar. They had been caught out by bad weather - forced into a cafe when they would have preferred cheaper and more relaxed park picnic. Parents are concerned that they may have to abandon their outing early if the kids become too cold. DC indeed tired and playing up and DF frustrated that they are sabotaging the treat. Father feels that he should impress upon the DC that it is really important to stay dry, because then they can continue their outing, and overall make some happy memories.

interesting article

Saw this and remembered this thread

I'm pretty sure that if I posted in the relationship section and said my DH/OP had grabbed hold of me by the collar, people would be saying that he was in the wrong/a possible DV perpetrator.

But do it to a child and it is ok? That child is probably more likely to grow up thinking that sort of behaviour is acceptable and may treat his own family in the same way.

I think his behaviour is on the same level as smacking tbh. Using physical force to intimidate somebody, especially a child, is wrong.

5ChildrenAndIt that's a very nice interpretation of the OP's story. But what if you're wrong? Why assume a random person you've never even met has good intentions? There are some arseholes in this world. and sadly many of them have children.

The OP was there and she says it was nasty, it wasn't right. Why do you believe the person you've not even met over her?

So they may have had a bad day we all have bad days some struggle more than others there is never an excuse to use such aggression

I would not accept an adult doing this to me so why would it be acceptable to do this to my ds just because he had pushed boundaries all day

The OP was there for 10 minutes max.

I don't think she can call 'child abuse' from what she described.

But I think I can call judgy-pants on her for the passive-aggressive loud
commenting.