To hope William Cornick spends at least the next 50 years in prison if not the rest of his life.

[smokepole]

William Cornick should never be released from prison, for his horrific and brutal attack on Ann Maguire. The judge has sentenced him to a minimum sentence of 20 years, no doubt based on his age. However, despite his teenage years and the stupidity and thoughtlessness that comes from these years his crime was so appalling he should spend the rest of his life in prison.

The only country that sentences children to full life terms is the USA, that is called a injustice by most of the world , because it does not allow for rehabilitation of children. William Cornick can not be rehabilitated for this crime and despite what the European court of human rights will say , he should serve the maximum sentence available under English law "Life in Prison".

The parents of Cornick must be living in a nightmare, wondering how they have bred such an evil child and thinking they are to blame for not stopping him from committing this heinous crime.

Only a truly awful person blames the victims of a crime for not preventing it.

^Abso-fuckin-lutely

I think it's grossly unfair to blame the other youngsters for not intervening. For a start, they would have been in a state of disbelief as the events unfolded in front of them, and secondly, they're in a situation where it's the adults who sort out difficult/dangerous behaviour so they're not taught how to intervene safely.

I think it's fairly clear that he had undiagnosed mental health issues, the sentencing report clearly states one of the psychiatrists as saying that he carried tremendous anger but he did not show it externally and that's one of the reasons they deemed him to be so dangerous.

I feel huge sympathy for his parents and the victims family and all those affected.

Not one of us can say with any certainty how they would react in a sudden shocking emergency that unfolded in seconds. Unless you have been through it, it's pointless.

Rollon, you're being ridiculous. You weren't there, you have no concept of the experience of being present when another pupil suddenly pulls a knife and attacks a teacher. Nor, of course do I, but I can imagine exactly what it was like - almost certainly none of them realised what was going on until the commotion started as they would have been concentrating on their work, and even then they wouldn't have known precisely what was happening till it was too late to do anything. And if you are seriously contending that unarmed teenagers should have taken on someone with a knife, you are being utterly unrealistic.

I think the judge has dealt with this in the right way. The fact that the comments were that he may never be released says to me that the judge is really suggesting that he very likely won't be but is being diplomatic with the wording.

Even with the most meticulous, ongoing psychiatric assessment, how could anyone ever trust a character like this to roam free again? We know he is clever, he was probably more than capable of saying the right things to get a more lenient sentence if he had wanted to.

It really is sad that a human being can turn out like this but with such lack of remorse I don't see how he can possibly deserve any pity. We can never truely know what goes on in the mind of someone like that.

The pupils who saw the knife will live with guilt forever, he probably enjoyed making them a part of it in his own sick way. I think his classmates were just so used to his unhinged behaviour and could never of imagined something so terrible could happen, to suggest otherwise is deeply unkind.

I have had a "Knife" put to throat by a robber when counting money at 1 am at work. I can tell you you have no control you just freeze and hope for the best. I was lucky that as soon as the "junkie" got £400 he ran off without stabbing me or hurting me. It is still vivid in my mind even after 13 years.
The children who witnessed the stabbing will be in trauma for the rest of their lives, they are the "victims" along with Ann's Husband/Sister and children. I can only feel hate towards Cornick or anybody who takes a life for no reason . I do not understand any pity for him, I do however feel for his family who now have no option but to move away and change their surnames.

Even we are not trained to disarm people alone. We would use restraint techniques as a team( and breakaway techniques only if our life was in danger).

The idea that a bunch of fifteen year olds could tackle a boy chasing a stabbed person who herself was trying to run away is a fucking idiotic thing to say. One brave teacher herself managed to get hold of the knife after she dragged the teacher into a cupboard for safety.

Roll- I don't normally say things like this but you sounds like a very stupid and cold hearted cunt. And I don't care if I am banned for saying it- you are worth it.

He has damaged so many with this one evil act.

I do hope his family are being supported too as they have also lost someone in a manner of speaking.

To correct a point made by Rollon - he has been diagnosed with "marked psychopathic traits". AllMimsy made the point that psychopathy can only be diagnosed in an adult. Is there any hope that his psychopathic traits can be ameliorated during the rest of his adolescent years, as his brain matures? I think it's highly unlikely, but I don't really have enough knowledge about such matters.

If he has to be incarcerated for most, if not all, of his life, then I wouldn't feel any pity for him being deprived of his liberty; I'd only feel pity for him should he ever fully realise that he is incapable of understanding the world in a normal way.

Coming to the discussion late, please don't go mad at me as I might sound really stupid with what I'm about to say.

I'm struggling to get my head round this a bit, the sentencing because I keep thinking of James Bulgars killers.

I know there are massive differences in the two cases, the age of the killers, their upbringing, their reactions after the crime, the psychologist reports.

But then what they did to James Bulgar was as horrific, planned. All are child killers. The Bulgar killers received relatively short sentences.

Can anyone be absolutely certain about the life this boy had? There might be things that go in in early childhood that shape the way you end up. We know he was being allowed to play violent video games.

I think it's right that he should be locked up, he is not and may never be safe to go back into society. But perhaps he can be rehabilitated? There was something in the paper about how rehabilitation will be difficult due to his intelligence, are they saying he is of above or below average intelligence.

But there have been other crimes as horrific, even committed by adults where sentences have been much shorter, that's the bit I can't get my head around.

I feel pity for him because IF he does suffer from antisocial PD, then he has a mental disorder. It's not a choice he made, it's just the way he is and he has no control over it (control over his actions yes, but no control over what drives them or the way he views the world).

People with ASPD on the severe end of the diagnosis should be pitied. They are observers in a world they can never be part of because they literally do not understand it.

They experience fleeting pleasure - sometimes that's from harming others - but that's all. They never experience real happiness or joy or love because they are incapable of it. The only emotion many of them experience is rage and for a lot of them, it is constant. I have only felt pure rage on one occasion in my life and it terrified me and was an awful feeling. I can't imagine feeling that all the time.

Imagine literally not understanding other people's feelings or emotions. To have so little regard for other people and for life itself (including your own) because it has no meaning or value to you. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Genuine ASPD sufferers, particularly those capable of hideous crimes often live 'half lives' . I think of them as holograms - they look real but when you look from the right angle you see right through them because there's no one really there. They are missing a fundamental part of what makes us human and that wasn't a choice. It's the way they are.

A 15 year old boy said he chose murder over his suicide - they were the choices he contemplated. And he wanted to spend his life in prison so he didn't have to 'worry about life or money'. I can't feel anything other than pity for him.

I did also think that while he had no regard for his poor victim, her family or his classmates.

He also had absolutely no regard for himself and his own life. Imagine thinking so little of your life that you're resigned to rot in jail. Most killers even the likes of Ian Brady try to get away with it.

Sockstealer - I think one of the problems is that the law has to delineate culpability somehow. The law says that children under the age of 10 are not responsible for their actions; it also marks a difference at the age of 18. But, as we all know, age is not a good indication of maturity. James Bulger's killers were just over the borderline into criminal culpability. And given their experience within their families in their life up until then, I think the sentence reflected the damage that had been done to them, as well as the hope that, being so young, rehabilitation would be possible.

I just need to clarify that I have no expert knowledge in this area. I used to work with people who did and I think in my second post on this thread I may have made mistakes, so sorry about that. Never a good idea to post stuff you don't fully understand!

I do know, though, that my former colleagues (forensic psychiatrists/psychologists) were quite categorical that a diagnosis of psychopathy (which was the term they used, never sociopathy) could not be made before the person concerned was at least 18. Prior to that the term used was Conduct Disorder. Sometimes there was also a diagnosis of Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

Yes, I suppose it just seems that 4-5 years difference in age isn't a huge difference, given the nature of both crimes. But then it's only another few years until 18, 21. As in to me it seems wrong to have hope for two 11 year olds who did that, but then write off a 15 year old. Who seemed to think he had no future other than prison or suicide.

I suppose you just hope that the system has got it right.

I'm not saying he should have got a shorter sentence btw, just that the amount of sympathy and understanding the other two got by comparison seems odd, to me.

Who can ever know what goes on in the minds of people who commit such crimes? I prefer to think that nobody is born evil but that something goes wrong along the way.

Allmimsy

Yes it is a diagnosis that is generally not made at such a young age, you are right.

I have sympathy for all involved and that includes the boy. I wouldn't have gone into psychiatry (and especially forensics and substance misuse) if I couldn't have compassion for even people considered by society to be beyond the pale. As far as I am concerned, he has been tried and convicted by a jury of his peers and my role (and everyone else's) is not to apportion additional punishment according to a subjective sliding scale of what is considered to be bad, badder and baddest.

If he was our son, would we want him to be further abused, punished or treated cruelly by those in the penal and forensic system? I like to think we all would not.

I know nothing about sociopaths or what it involves - my personal experience is of autism and it doesn't seem similar at all from what is posted on here. In fact it's a relief to read all this because with previous incidents there's been suggestions of ASD and it's been so stressful to think that people think like that about ASD .
I feel like there's something not right about punishing someone fro the way they are but I guess it comes down to mental capacity and choice - if you know the consequences and understand society thinks it's wrong then you are inviting punishment even if you feel justified in your actions?

Speaking personally, I interpret the 'punishment' as withdrawal of freedom and autonomy. The rest is basically the needs of the organisation in which the person is incarcerated having to be met- the regulated bedtime and eating time and isolation and limited exercise periods. A lot of these are dependent upon occupation levels in the prison or special hospital, dependent upon the ethos of the regime under which a person is incarcerated. They shouldn't be used as additional punishment although they feel punishing to the prisoner.

When people go on about the 'luxury' of prison I know they have never been in one or a special hospital or they are lying. I recall one daft mare from that show 'Bad Girls.' She visited the prison I was working in and her interview was used to criticise the 'luxury conditions' a particularly notorious prisoner was being held in. This actress spoke of carpeted cells and luxury duvet sets and televisions. The reality was a cement floored cell in the bowels of the prison hospital seg, no contact with any humans other than staff, a standard £10 duvet bought from her canteen and an old black and white TV with a picture controlled by staff, high on the wall. I was nursing this prisoner at the time and she was at the lies printed in the press and the gall of this actress. And people swallow them.

There is nothing luxurious about a few hours of outside fresh air and daylight a week (if you are lucky), nothing luxurious about no freedom, poorer access to books now and being addressed by your surname or even a number a lot of the time. Not even the freedom to decide when you get up or eat or interact with others either. Nothing luxurious about being isolated from everything we take for granted. If it was luxurious prisoners wouldn't struggle to adjust so much and the rate of recidivism might be lower- trust me it isn't because they miss the luxury. They just don't know how to bridge the gap between the total sensory and reality deprivation of inside and the world beyond the gate.

So the move from young offenders type place to adult would be fairly stark? And a shock 're: what it's like.I hate the idea,that,as a society we,can't do any more than lock people up forever, we might as well go back to capital punishment in that case.

Yes, it would be although the YOI's I have been to are no picnic either.

Either way, liberty is lost and identity formation hampered at a time (adolescence) when it is forming and crystallising and privacy and independence are most valued. There is no hope for any further 'normal' development in any YA in a punitive institute, no matter how well meaning the staff.

Mary Bell's case shows that rehabilitation is possible. So very sad for everyone involved.

Didn't Mary Bell try to sell her story in later life? That doesn't strike me as someone full of remorse or rehabilitation...

She corroborated on a book, does that mean she wasn't rehabilitated? She kept being outed by journalists every time something major happened in her life.