To think it's sexist to complain about women taking maternity leave?

[novemberblue]

Name changed.

I'm a teacher. Quite a few women have gone off on maternity leave.

I'm shocked by the responses colleagues make! They regularly complain and say things like, she's only just had one, wish I got paid to be off for a year and one woman has four children and they say she's out more than she's in.

Aibu to think it's sexist and out of order?

Grr, lost my post.

Daisy, if women start a job pregnant, they don't qualify for SMP. They may qualify for maternity allowance but they don't get the six weeks at 90%. They also wouldn't get the chance to accrue much holiday, which many women use to make the start of maternity leave more affordable.

Continuing post...

So, for those reasons, amongst others eg familiarity with an existing boss and his/her attitude to working mothers, I think many women end up staying somewhere longer than is good for their career progression, because they are thinking about TTC/actually TTC and know that any move would cost them a fair bit. .

Unfortunately there are no stats on this but I wouldn't be at all surprised if more women stay on because they are TTC than move because they want to take advantage of a new employer,

I might see if MNHQ want to run a survey.

What proportion of women actually take a year, given the last 3 months are unpaid?

A quick google gave me this for armed forces:
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363921/maternity_report_2012_final.pdf

23% less than 6 months, 54% 6-9 months, 13% 9-12 months, 11% not returning.

Does anyone have general numbera?

Phaedra, I don't know what makes recruiting, specifically contract staff, in your field so hard. I am sure there are many factors that influence this. But it isn't the fault of women who dare to have children!

Do you work in a field that is relatively low paid for the amount of education / qualification you need to be in it?

It sounds like your field is one where the market just doesn't work, for whatever reason. It's a fault with letting the market decide things. I would suggest some attractive govt funding for training for those who are looking to career change

I agree that it is the few that give the majority a bad name.

The generous t&c of teachers does encourage some to really take the piss, whether that's with maternity arrangements or sickness. Eg starting a job pregnant - it's poor form, regardless of the legality of the situation. Likewise being able to keep one's job open for years on end by resetting the clock with a few weeks' work here and there.

I think that maternity pay and conditions should be excellent and attractive for proven employees.

Interview processes and notice periods might mean it's several months since you applied for the job before you start.

I doubt many women set out to deliberately start a new job pregnant - as noted above, it reduces some of the statutory pay (and that's even excluding enhanced pay) open to them and puts them in a rush to learn the job quickly and on the back foot with their new bosses. Really, women KNOW this - just as you'd probably not start a new job and announce you'd booked a month holiday 3 months in. I would imagine the majority of women starting new jobs pregnant had an unplanned pregnancy, had only just started TTC and it took less time than expected, were having fertility treatment that has its own time table, saw a unique opportunity arise that they didn't want to miss, maybe had had past MCs and weren't sure if the pregnancy would continue etc.

Women KNOW they will be judged - why would they "volunteer" for that on a massive scale?

Yanbu but people are just as bad or worse regarding bias toward men taking extended leave for childcare reasons ime

If women are complaining about other women using maternity leave then I hardly think that could be sexist. after all the teaching profession is I believe majoratively female (70+%)

If however the men are complaining about it, then it may be, but they get paternity leave too.

There are SAHDs (mine's one). Unfortunately, he didn't have the same excellent pay and conditions and incentives to return to work that I had (as a woman) so he's had to leave his job.

Hardly seems fair and is perhaps a bit sexist, non?

I am looking forward to certainly men giving working men a bad name once shared parental leave comes in.

Curly, were you at the same company? Many companies don't pay more than SMP etc.

Certainly = certain, above.

Yonic - no, different company/organisation/sectors (one commercial, one voluntary... guess which of us worked where).

Curly, so in that case I don't think it was sexist.

I actually don't know which was which, different companies within different sectors are, err, different..

Hm. Why not? He has been put at a disadvantage because of stereotypical gender roles. He's not being offered equal rights and entitlements in terms of providing parental child care.

Perhaps I'm getting myself confused about it.

My point about sectors was that (IME) the commercial sector isn't as supportive of maternity/paternity leave as the voluntary.

Namechanged.

I work on the railway. The nature of the industry is such that at least part of any operational employee's training is unique to each company. Recruiting maternity cover is virtually impossible, even a train driver from another company will not be trained in my company's train types or routes. They need a medical before they can start. Realistically, you're looking at several months before anyone who joins the company is operational - before that the company is essentially getting no benefit from them whatsoever as they can't be used to work trains. Upon returning from maternity leave, a driver/guard will have lost their competency (by virtue of having not worked trains) so will need some retraining. This cant be helped but the situation is made more difficult by the fact that most women are taken off operational duties once their pregnancy is announced, so their maternity leave is extended, insofar as they can't undertake their normal duties, by up to 7 months in one case I know of.

None of the above can be helped and is not the woman's fault at all but this is already a very male industry and the facts of maternity leave on the railway don't help to change the attitude of many of the old hands. I don't know what the answer is to changing the attitudes though.

Something which does frustrate many of us is when women (no man has asked but it would be just as frustrating) request family friendly hours. While I acknowledge their right to do so, we are paid a premium to acknowledge the constantly changing shifts, the antisocial hours, the weekend working , the inability to commit to something like an evening class, because your shifts will not be the same day to day, let alone week to week etc. We have people on fixed, midweek shifts as a result of family friendly working requests who get paid just as much but don't have to deal with going from finishing at 2am one night, to starting at 3am a few days later. They never have to work weekends. They never have to work the shit shifts that are full of drunks and trouble. That rubs a lot of people up the wrong way, and I'm afraid I'm one of them. Separate issue to maternity leave though, so sorry for the off topic rant.

I agree with bobbywash in that in teaching it's mostly other women teachers complaining, and indeed mothers of the pupils.

But I've only heard complaints about the ones who are perceived to be taking advantage. Also, regarding returning to work - I've never heard a man asking to work one day a week. But it seems every single teacher returning from maternity leave asks to work for only one day a week. At dd's school the three teachers all returning from maternity leave last year requested this (an earlier returner had been successful in her request but these three were denied). The staff was all women and the reason it created bad feeling was nothing to do with anything other than feelings of exasperation at the chaos it would have caused.

Curly, is he offered similar rights to women at his firm?

"But it seems every single teacher returning from maternity leave asks to work for only one day a week. "

I think that is pretty unusual and, as you say, it was declined.

Yonic. I would imagine so in terms of pay/training and so on, but there was no provision (other than 4 weeks paternity leave) in terms of parental equality. It may all change with the new laws (I also find it interesting that people are saying men don't (or won't) step up when it's not always that simple).

Flexible working isn't a right. It legally has to be considered/weighed up, but it isn't a right. They can ask, doesn't necessarily mean they will get.

And actually, iirc, anyone can ask for flexible working now - it's not just those with children under a certain age (or with disabilities).

Sorry, yes. Was his flexible working request turned down when those from women were accepted?

I'm looking forward to shared parental pay too!

I thought (years since I did my request) anyone requesting flexible working had to address the likely impact on their job and colleagues, and that employers had a range of grounds on which they could reject requests.

Obviously it will depend on the job role, but I think that for most employers being flexible about working requests is going to pay off - there's a lot of investment in recruiting and training staff, and if you have a bit of give and take then you are more likely to retain your staff. I know there have been times I've wanted to move job but have stayed with my company because they are very reasonable about working patterns (and luckily they are a large group and moving to different roles whilst maintaining my working pattern is an option).