....to ask what you think of white poppies (Remembrance-related)?

[PlumpingUpPartridge]

I had been dimly aware of the existence of white poppies but hadn't really given them much thought until DH mentioned them this weekend. I checked out the website and saw this:

linky

I liked this quote:

"In 1933 the first white poppies appeared on Armistice Day (called Remembrance Day after World War Two). The white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the white poppy supporters lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers - but a challenge to the continuing drive to war. The following year the newly founded Peace Pledge Union began widespread distribution of the poppies and their annual promotion."

I am very happy to express my admiration and respect for those who died in wars, but I don't particularly want to see any more wars. I don't know what the alternative is, but I'd like to see more effort go into finding it.

I've been sifting through the threads and noticed some anti-white poppy feeling (along the lines of 'it's disrespectful'). I didn't grow up here so don't have childhood experience to guide me on this. Please can you tell me what you think of it and, if you think it's disrespectful, why?

I'm not a journalist by the way, just curious and trying to be impartial

All of that came from people with connections to the military, did it Paxtecum?

And, tbqh, I don't think anything tops "warmongering bastards"!

""Warmongering Bastards" Fucking hell! "

I think you misunderstood this.

We have been told repeatedly that white poppy wearers think that red poppy wearers are warmongers. When the white poppy wearers have said nothing of the sort. And don't think that at all. Straw men and all that!

Fairy obviously I don't know your DH and DS unless they are stationed near here and form part of the rabble making bits of the city centre no go areas on weekends. I do know that I have had nasty comments and more (being jostled into the road) when wearing a white poppy and passing the squaddie pubs while in the city centre in previous years. I wasn't at home last weekend or the weekend before and therefore I have been spared that. I'm not planning on going anywhere near the squaddie places on Saturday.

Categorically, I do not think red poppy wearers are warmongering bastards.

I think that THEY think white poppy wearers are calling them that.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Thanks for clarifying Hakluyt.

Actually, I do think you're unlikely to get any hassle from real life service people it's the armchair soldiers who are going to be the problem. And "garrison" towns are full of them.

I understood it perfectly thanks Hakylut. There was absolutely no need for it.

Hak all the squaddies I've known have been really remarkable for keeping their cool. Probably the years and years they spent in Ireland in the 80s having things like bricks and abuse thrown at them by kids while not retaliating. They were on a 'winning hearts and minds' mission to try to earn back enough respect after all the times TPTB had crapped on Irish people from a great height. (In a nutshell.) They've been on the receiving end of far worse from their own COs while training, and that's before any tours in Afganistan or Iraq or wherever.

Hanging onto their tempers is one thing they are trained to do well, and as a body they are far better at it than civilians. They know that the law applies to them as much as anyone else. They're fighting for those laws, so most appreciate them and certainly live within them or are not immune to the consequences.

How do people know these men they are receiving nasty comments from are soldiers? Just, how? You wouldn't know DS1 is, he looks the same as all his mates who aren't.

I've never heard of a "squaddie pub" either. We have 2 Army bases within 6 miles of each other, and an RAF base 15 miles away, the local pubs have a mixture of everyone. They don't like groups of soldiers going in knowingly, because they have this ridiculous stereotypical idea of them. But they do go in, they just don't use their Forces' ID as proof of age! There's seldom any trouble involving a soldier, the last case was one very seriously assaulted while he was having a wee because they bloke didn't like the look of him. He didn't fight back, nor did his mates, owing to the fact he was unconscious and seriously ill!

I am a little surprised at those who argue that the white poppy is free of all political overtones whilst urging that to give to the RBL is in some way supportive of war. There is surely a powerful argument that those who supported disarmament, claiming that it was synonomous with peace, in the 1930s were substantially responsible for the failure of the British and French governments to prevent the drift to war by resisting Hitler's aggression. It could have been done relatively easily and without war when he marched into the Rhineland. Principal among these supporters of appeasement was the Peace Pledge Union - the originators of the white poppy. It seems to me that those who wear it are supporting the aims of the PPU. I have to say I do not think they should wear it until they have asked themselves whether unilateral disarmament and peace are far from the same thing; whether there can be true peace where there is no justice or freedom and the same question as the old soldier I mentioned upthread - whether humans do some things so terrible that even war is preferable to allowing them to continue. If they have considered those questions and concluded that in all situations they should not only turn the other cheek when bad things are done to them or theirs but pass by on the other side when bad things are done to others, they are candidates for the the PPU view of life - and often death. But in wearing their white poppy, I hope they will understand that they can only do so because of those who have taken the other view - that some things are so important that they have to be defended to the death - and it is those whom the red poppy honours and whom we will remember not only on Sunday but, I hope, whenever we enjoy the freedom they guarded for us, imperfect perhaps but greater than most of the world enjoys even now.

But.... fairycaravan, I don't understand why you're so angry. I haven't said that white poppy wearers think that at all. I've said that there is a misconception that they all DO think it, and that that misconception is - well, a misconception.

Maybe some white poppy wearers do think that, but I don't think they're right to do so.

We seem to exploring the nature of prejudice and symbolism on this thread, from both sides. Surely a statement of a commonly held misconception (with the statement that it IS a misconception) has a place?

The picture posted by howl gives me the creeps.

Almost everyone alive in 1914 is now dead. Surely our country is built on the sacrifice/contribution of everyone who lived in the past regardless of whether or not they were in a war or not. Has a coal miner who died in down a pit in 1915 contributed less to our country then a soldier who died in 1915? What about a woman dying in childbirth in 1915?

We are the sum of all our history and all our people. I don't feel it is right to honour and remember one person and forget another simply because one was conscripted and the other wasn't.

Fairy I hadn't heard of squaddie pubs till I moved here, either. I wish I still hadn't heard of them. Or rather, I wish the ones where I live weren't situated where they are. To be fair, the very worst pub isn't a squaddie one and it puts the others in the shade.

"Add message | Report | Message poster TheFairyCaravan Fri 07-Nov-14 10:26:23
I understood it perfectly thanks Hakylut. There was absolutely no need for it."

Honestly, you didn't. Honestly.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the White poppy is free of political overtones. It clearly isn't, at least for some.

Cat I do take your points about the PPU and agree to some extent. I would like to pay respects not to those who want unilateral disarmament, but who strive for peaceful means to bring about an end to conflicts, especially if they risked or gave up their lives in the process, or strove so that others (especially our own armed personel) didn't have to! I don't see it as a black and white (or red and white) issue but the red poppy alone doesn't quite cover it.

Gosh, Hakluyt whilst you're inside my mind could you let me know what other things I've got to do today and if I've left anything out of DS1's parcel?

it's very simple, if your going to go out of your way to make a very unpopular political statement your going to have to accept the backlash, a white poppy will never be accepted, it just wont, it's not the done thing.

Just accept people will dislike you.

The fact that PlumpinupPartridge rephrased her post and you'restill saying "there was no need for it" means you still haven't understood, sorry.

People on this thread have accused white poppy wearers of all sorts of things they haven't said. Including saying that red poppy wearers are warmongers.

White poppies are widely accepted. Small minded people get arsey about them, and people with unpleasant agendas, but most people respect and understand that other people may have different views and values.

I really don't care if you dislike me, from your posts I get the impression I wouldn't like you IRL.

from what I'm reading, people are being pushed in to roads and their children beaten up because of it (none of that I condone) and many serving families and personnel view it as a bit of a personal jibe but are willing to let it go. The majority of the UK wear a red poppy, I'd never even heared of "the white poppy"till recently and if I saw someone wear one of say and do nothing.

but the tone of these threads is very anti today's armed forces and is disheartening at best.

I'm still saying it am I Hak? .

I understood it perfectly well. I don't need someone coming behind me telling me what I do or don't understand. I don't need someone telling me what I think!

it's very simple, if your going to go out of your way to make a very unpopular political statement your going to have to accept the backlash, a white poppy will never be accepted, it just wont, it's not the done thing. Just accept people will dislike you.

I've worn a white poppy at this time of year for all of my adult life and have never had any "backlash". I have had people ask why I'm wearing one and I explain and they understand. A lot of people know about them. Claire Rayner famously wore one on TV many years ago and there was a lot of press attention then.

The white poppy is accepted by many. It just is. You may not like it but not one flying fuck do I give.

Like Rabbit I'm pretty sure you aren't the sort of person I hang out with IRL.

People are anti today's armed forces until they need something ginger.

Make no mistake, if people get flooded this year they will expect to see them pitch up with the sand bags.

When the fire service go on strike, who will they expect to put their fires out? The armed forces, that's who!

If there is a natural disaster abroad, they will expect the forces to be sent to help.

what does RL have to do with the internet . yeah ok you won't be my best friend, I'm heartbroken.....

I don't give a shot what you wear like I've said over and over again, what I object to is people calling red poppy wearers war mongerers, war apologists and then saying they ate doing so by wearing a white poppy and hiding behind it. that's what I object to, have whatever political leanings you want but don't expect everyone to agree.

I'm not anti the armed forces - at least not the ordinary soldiers. I do have a problem with the top brass and their arrogance but I know a lot of soldiers feel that way themselves.

Of course I'd expect help from the army if I was flooded - it's part of their job. They are paid to do it, why wouldn't I expect their help? I'd be very grateful for their help, naturally.

And bloody amazed because I live at the top of a hill.