....to ask what you think of white poppies (Remembrance-related)?

[PlumpingUpPartridge]

I had been dimly aware of the existence of white poppies but hadn't really given them much thought until DH mentioned them this weekend. I checked out the website and saw this:

linky

I liked this quote:

"In 1933 the first white poppies appeared on Armistice Day (called Remembrance Day after World War Two). The white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the white poppy supporters lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers - but a challenge to the continuing drive to war. The following year the newly founded Peace Pledge Union began widespread distribution of the poppies and their annual promotion."

I am very happy to express my admiration and respect for those who died in wars, but I don't particularly want to see any more wars. I don't know what the alternative is, but I'd like to see more effort go into finding it.

I've been sifting through the threads and noticed some anti-white poppy feeling (along the lines of 'it's disrespectful'). I didn't grow up here so don't have childhood experience to guide me on this. Please can you tell me what you think of it and, if you think it's disrespectful, why?

I'm not a journalist by the way, just curious and trying to be impartial

Ah, the 20s.

11th November isn't supposed to be about the people of now, it's supposed to be about the people who lost their lives in the two world wars. Not institutions, not taking the place of appropriate government funding.

Eve is making the point she always makes. my typing ability and the limitations of my iPad mean that capitalisation doesn't always happen and I'm fine with that.

I have no idea what that means

But the poppy appeal is explicitly to remember and honour all servicemen. I thought that's what you were arguing, that it's not just about the difficult 'illegal' wars of Iraq and Afghanistan, but the much nobler actions of a century ago. I'm pointing out that even that idea is hugely problematic.

The british legion has repositioned the idea of 11 November to be about the forces as an institution (thus including modern conflicts) rather than about remembering the fallen of the two world wars. They see the fund raising aspects of the poppy appeal as a vital component of their activities which supplement arguably inadequate government funding across a range of issues affecting service-people.

However, they had no right to do this. remembering the fallen is one thing, supporting current service-people is a completely different thing.

here is a difference between remembrance (verb) and Remembrance (noun) is the point I think Eve is trying to make.

Just so long as I get to remember in whichever way seems fitting to me, that's fine. I get a bit enraged at the prospect of a thought police telling me how to pay my respects.....

rabbit ^^YY to this.

I think it's wrong to blame today's generation of service men and women for the actions of those in Ireland 90 years ago. I don't hate the Germans for the actions of the Nazi's, I don't hate the French for Napoleon. I don't hate the Spanish for the Armada. It's History, we remember it and learn from it. And try not to keep repeating it. BTW my Grandad was Irish and served in WW1. He was in the Army Medical Corps.

I'll make it easier for you Rabbit.

Remembrance with a capital R is the National event that occurs across the country. The RBL are the coordinators or 'Custodians' of that event.

remembrance without the capital is what we can all do personally or not, doesn't need coordination and doesn't need a custodian.

I hope that clears it up.

Janine, I choose to remember all the servicepeople that have died whilst in service. For me Remembrance Day is all about them, not about me, not about the Government or the state, but about the men and women that died doing what they thought was right and doing their duty at the time. That sense of Duty is, for me, the backbone of the British Military. Men and women go into Service and pledge and oath to do their duty - and they do so without question. The men and women killed whilst on active Service, whether in WW1 or 2, the Falklands, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghan or even Northern Ireland were doing their duty and deserve to be remembered for that - whether you agree with what they were doing or not. They didn't 'choose' their paths, they were sent, and for being loyal to the oath the swore, the contract they signed, the colleagues they deployed with, I salute them.

So basically, the RBL acquires donations from the people and redirects them to servicepeople, thus reducing the need for the government to step up and look after its own damn military whilst at the same time relying on it for a hell of a lot. The people fund the care of military personnel via a more-or-less mandatory poppy tax. Which I have no personal problem with, but it's all so covert.

I feel a rage coming on.

as long as that rage is directed at the Government(s) for not providing adequate care for the servicepeople, veterans, familes and dependants and not at the Servicepeople themselves huh OP?

It doesn't 'redirect' funds anywhere. The purpose of the RBL is well known for anyone who takes so much as a cursory look.

There's a huge number of things it could be called, but it could hardly be called covert for crying out loud.

From some of the views on here, I'd think people would be glad that some of the care of modern day forces is being funded by a charity where contribution is mandatory, than an increase in government military spending.

contributions are optional

That's exactly where it's aimed eve!

meoverhere I never thought that the RBL (plus other charities) were basically doing all the things the government should be doing for its servicepeople. I am happy to fund it but I wish I'd known how shit my government was being before. I'd have donated more money and made an official fuss.

I say covert because most people go 'Oh, it's nearly Nov 11th, I should buy a poppy, the RBL are good sorts and help servicepeople' and give a quid. There aren't any signs up saying 'Your donation will be invaluable for helping servicepeople because let's face it, our government doesn't give a shit'. That's the bit that angers me.

Eve - there we agree. I don't support most of what this government does but if it asks service people - as it does - to do these things the least it can do is adequately fund them. It's outrageous that injured service people, bereaved dependents etc should be forced to rely on charity. I use my vote to support different ways of doing things but while service people exist and are contracted (as you point out) to do this stuff then it is the government/taxpayer that should fund them.

If the true cost of our military exploits was paid by the taxpayer in a transparent way we might see more people questioning government policies regarding the military. We would also see fairer treatment for people who, as you say, have done their best and done what was asked of them.

That's fine, Eve, that's your choice and your right to participate in acts of collective remembrance. I'm simply explaining why I choose not to and defending the right of people to wear white, purple or polka dotted poppies should they wish.

our government doesn't give a shit'.

And on that, Plumping, you and I can agree.

Good post Rabbit

Rabbit, you have a knack for putting my thoughts into words! Very well put.

As I understand it, red poppies are to remember those that died in WW1 & 2. As an adult, I wear one out of respect for the terrible circumstances they were in - they had no idea what they kept themselves in for.

I also wear a purple poppy to remember the animals that were killed - they had no choice.

Finally I wear a white poppy because I'm pro peace. If everyone was pro peace, they'd be no war.

Plenty of space on my lapel !

This may or may not be relevant, but RBL have released an official remembrance day song, that has had the anti-war verse removed..

Here's the proper version.

The version put out by the RBL is an insult to Eric Bogle, frankly.

Full Lyrics-

1. Well, how'd you do, Private William Mcbride?

Do you mind if I sit here down by your graveside? I'll rest here awhile in the warm summer sun, I've been walking all day, Lord, and I'm nearly done. And I see by your gravestone you were only 19 When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916-- Well, I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean, Or, Willie Mcbride, was it slow and obscene?

Chorus:
Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they sound the fife lowly,
Did the rifles fire o'er you as they lowered you down?
Did the bugles sing "The Last Post" in chorus?
Did the pipes play "The Flowers of the Forest?"

2. Did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind?
   In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
   And, though you died back in 1916,
   To that loyal heart are you always 19?
   Or are you a stranger without even a name,
   Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
   In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
   And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?

3. The sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
   The warm wind blows gently, and the red poppies dance.
   The trenches have vanished long under the plough;
   No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
   But here in this graveyard it's still No Man's Land
   The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
   To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
   And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

4. And I can't help but wonder, now Willie Mcbride,
   Do all those who lie here know why they died?
   Did you really believe them when they told you 'The Cause? '
   Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
   Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
   The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
   For Willie Mcbride, it all happened again,
   And again, and again, and again, and again.

RBL version -

Well how do you do young William McBride
Do you mind if I sit here down by your grave side?
And rest for awhile beneath the warm summer sun
I've been walking all day and I'm nearly done.
And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
when you joined the glorious fallen in 1916
Well I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or, William McBride, was it slow and obscene?
?

Did they beat the drum slowly?
Did they play the fire lowly?
Did the sound of their mouths as they lowered you down?
Did the bugle play 'The Last Post' in ?
Did the pipes play 'The Flowers o' the Forest'?
?

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind?
In some loyal heart is your memory enshrined
And though you died back in 1916
in that loyal heart are you forever 19
?

Did they beat the drum slowly?
Did they play the fire lowly?
Did the sound of their mouths as they lowered you down?
Did the bugle play 'The Last Post' in ?
Did the pipes play 'The Flowers o' the Forest'?
?

And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
when you joined the glorious fallen in 1916
Well I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or, William McBride, was it slow, was it obscene?
?

Did they beat the drum slowly?
Did they play the fire lowly?
Did the sound of their mouths as they lowered you down?
Did the bugle play 'The Last Post' in ?
Did the pipes play 'The Flowers o' the Forest'?
?

Did the bugle play 'The Last Post' in ?
Did the pipes play 'The Flowers o' the Forest'??