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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not trust the unions or the government re public sector pensions

135 replies

bonded · 31/10/2014 08:16

With even more fire person and NHS strikes that affects us all I want to be informed on the subject. But I don't trust either of them.

Is there anywhere with a balanced view?

I don't want fire people working till they are 68 but at the same time an average earning fire person having a 400k pension pot doesn't sound affordable.

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 01/11/2014 00:38

cornish

If a teacher takes a lump sump at the start of their retirement they do have to give up some of their pension.

CornishYarg · 01/11/2014 09:10

Boney I thought the accrual rate of the teachers' pension scheme was currently 1/60th, moving to 1/57th when it becomes a career average scheme? So having to give up some pension to get cash would be standard. But a pp mentioned her scheme was 1/80ths but often schemes with that design give the cash sum as well.

Nomama · 01/11/2014 09:24

TPS online calculator shows how much you give up when you take a lump sum - before and after the 2007 change date.

bonded · 01/11/2014 09:27

So teachers were underpaying by 1\5th. Doesn't that mean that for the next 30 years people will have to overpay by 1\5th not just break even.

I think teachers is one of the more affordable pensions. Fire persons is the worst, they were paying in 13% and for the pension they get privately would have to pay 48% someone on r4 said yesterday.

OP posts:
Orangeanddemons · 01/11/2014 09:33

I cam on here to join this debate as I'm a teacher.

However, I became absolutely infuriated by the poster who said that firemen were just manual labourShockAngry
Our house suffered a serious fire in June, the firemen were fucking amazing. I owe my life and our house to them. They deserve gold plated pensions doing that job every day.

Manual labourAngry

CrumpleHornedSnorkack · 01/11/2014 09:36

The thing about the TPS is that life expectancies for teachers who spend 30+ years teaching are much lower than the national average, it is self funding due to this, many former teachers do not draw that many years from the scheme. Now obviously there are always exceptions to this but across a wide range of teaching staff the life expectancies are lower after retirement.

bonded · 01/11/2014 09:40

What is the life expectancy of a teacher? Really can't see why it wouldn't be near the average, its not a physical job.

OP posts:
Nomama · 01/11/2014 09:41

Oh dear! Is it a very slow news day, bonded?

Nomama · 01/11/2014 09:44

Sorry, that posted early...

Teachers don't have longer/shorter retirement life, Crumple is mistaken. Not unusual given the number of times that old chestnut is touted.

But the casual "its [sic] not a physical job" is very amusing.

CornishYarg · 01/11/2014 09:55

Thanks nomama, just had a quick look. So a teacher who joined after 2007 gets 1/60ths and has to give up some pension if they want a cash sum. If they joined before 2007, they get 1/80ths plus a cash sum (but they can get a bigger cash sum by giving up some pension).

They're both very standard designs.

chicaguapa · 01/11/2014 10:07

Actuarial valuations do take 'experience' into account when estimating longevity so I would expect a funded public sector scheme to do the same.

However sure you were that your life expectancy was lower than the national average, I don't suppose many people would be willing to exchange their lifetime pension for a higher fixed term income though.

One of the biggest contributors to the impending pensions crisis (apart from low savers) is underestimating your life expectancy.

BoneyBackJefferson · 01/11/2014 10:17

Cornish

They are indeed both standard designs, yet it is apparently "outdated", it is also changing again at some point soon.

rollonthesummer · 01/11/2014 10:28

he brigrade is now trying to sack people on a competency level so they don't have to pay any pension out at all.

This is increasingly threatened in teaching as well. 'Old' is bad and expensive so they are accused of being incompetent. Two good colleagues left last year rather than face competency procedures. Luckily, they were mid fifties and good afford to go. Both have also been snapped up as supply as they're bloody good teachers.

I think there will be an increasing number of ex public sector workers who will be 'competencied' off. What will happen to them financially?

caroldecker · 01/11/2014 10:40

The TPS is unfunded and current receipts are lower than current payments - see NUT quote above.

Nomama · 01/11/2014 10:47

See previous comments re longer term balances, carol.

The NUT have published a moment in time, Hutton looked at the lifetime of the scheme, quoted and linked to earlier.

CornishYarg · 01/11/2014 11:17

Boney To be fair, none of the private sector schemes with that design that I advised were still open for new employees to join. And a lot were closed for future service, with staff now receiving money purchase pensions. So it is an outdated design to some extent.

I'm not a fan of the race to the bottom by any means and wouldn't want to see a move to money purchase public sector schemes simply because that's what's happening in the private sector. And there are certainly some design issues to sort out, especially around retirement age. But in principle I think the move to a career average scheme isn't an unreasonable compromise.

TartinaTiara · 01/11/2014 11:18

OP, to answer your question from yesterday morning (sorry for delay - went to work, went out after work, got home at ridiculous hour in the morning, now nursing hangover), I thought the report was very fairly balanced, and more to the point, cited the assumptions and evidence upon which it relied. As to who paid me (which is a good question, and one we should be asking when anyone tries to persuade us of a position), I read the report so I could better advise my clients, who came from all sides of the argument - so I wasn't paid directly by any side.

And to those who say "this is what we signed up to, 20 years ago, and it's unfair that it's changed", yes, I agree it sucks when your expectations are pulled away from under you. But (as far as I'm aware - haven't yet looked closely at all the new regulations for all the new schemes), anything earned up to April next year is protected, and still linked to final salary. Nobody's taking away anything actually earned, but changing it for the future. I think that if people want to object to that, then they're right to strike, but that decision should be made from a position of knowledge and not relying on soundbites made by either side.

I suspect that it's a vain hope to expect honesty from politicians (in general, they're human, just like the rest of us, and some are genuinely there out of a desire to improve society, but they seem to be disproportionately driven by the need to appear infallible), but I'm slightly disappointed that some of the unions don't seem to want to give the full picture to their members. Though that's probably a whole other argument about the level of political discourse.

Nomama · 01/11/2014 11:37

Tartina, we know that what already exists remains the same, my objection is not to the changes - as they are now going forward rather than how they were first proposed. It is obvious something has to give.

My objection is those soundbites, mainly the ones that make me sound greedy and unreasonable just because I am a teacher and the meeja can run away with themselves by badly presenting the facts. As they do with many public sector workers ad nauseum.

BoneyBackJefferson · 01/11/2014 12:14

Cornish

The career average is where we are at, (it used to be something about the average of the last three years salary in service) and as I posted it will be changing again in the near future.

Nomama · 01/11/2014 12:18

See Boney - even the nice posters think we haven't got a clue!

BoneyBackJefferson · 01/11/2014 12:21

"I suspect that it's a vain hope to expect honesty from politicians (in general, they're human, just like the rest of us, and some are genuinely there out of a desire to improve society, but they seem to be disproportionately driven by the need to appear infallible),"

That is definitely one opinion :)

BoneyBackJefferson · 01/11/2014 12:25

Nomama, you would think with our 9 - 3 jobs, 13 weeks holidays, 5 extra days off for training and being able to engineer the falling of snow so we get even more days off we would do more than drink gin and party :)

Nomama · 01/11/2014 12:26
Grin
caroldecker · 01/11/2014 12:27

Nomama the current position is net liabilities of £250 billion and a notional past service deficit of £15 billion latest accounts
So yes, more has been paid in than out in the past, but if it had been a funded scheme there would be a £15 billion black hole, which will be funded by taxpayers.

Nomama · 01/11/2014 12:34

I suspect I have not understood you last post, carol.

It seems to contradict itself.