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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not trust the unions or the government re public sector pensions

135 replies

bonded · 31/10/2014 08:16

With even more fire person and NHS strikes that affects us all I want to be informed on the subject. But I don't trust either of them.

Is there anywhere with a balanced view?

I don't want fire people working till they are 68 but at the same time an average earning fire person having a 400k pension pot doesn't sound affordable.

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 31/10/2014 17:08

Nomama

I suspect that it is the masochist teacher in me that wants too continue to try and educate them :)

Nomama · 31/10/2014 17:10
Grin

I must be more tired than I thought... my initial reaction to this thread was just meh

BoneyBackJefferson · 31/10/2014 17:36

I was (I admit) expecting it to have been started by one particular poster.

chicaguapa · 31/10/2014 17:43

Fwiw DH is a teacher so I don't need to be convinced of anything. Nor do I need to be educated, particularly about the reforms to the Teachers Pension Scheme. Hmm

Yet this "outdated" model holds up to scrutiny when assessed

It absolutely doesn't. Sorry. Speak to a pensions actuary and he'll tell you what a difference just a few years between Scheme Valuations can have to the cost of current and future liabilities.

Like I said, the pensions issue is clouding the real issue of the government undervaluing its public sector employees and not paying them enough. That's why your union is letting you down and I mistrust them as much as the government (as per my first post).

BoneyBackJefferson · 31/10/2014 17:59

chica

Can you provide evidence of this? the last report published by the government said that it was self sustaining. If the second report had said anything different then why wouldn't they publish it.

Nomama · 31/10/2014 18:11

Mmmm! A quick google seems to suggest that the government do consider it to be self sustaining...

The 2 issues are linked, chica. I am having both pension and pay squeezed. Pay effectively reducing, my contributions rising and I am still being told I am being unreasonable, I have it easy, should be grateful etc.

Actually I am sick of being lied to and having the goalposts moved and the meeja whipping up hatred of me. The truth of my pay packet is I bring home a little less than I did... and it doesn't buy as much as it did.

I can't even quit without suffering extra hardship as I have to give a lifetime's notice, by 3 very specific dates in the year, and hope I can find another job, outside teaching, in a decent time frame.

chicaguapa · 31/10/2014 18:15

Who knows why they won't publish it? I'm not supporting the government either. But I'm just looking at the evolution of pensions, particuarly final salary schemes, and how the changing population has made these outdated and unsustainable. On a very very basic level how can a final salary pension be self-sustaining? How can a fund with less money paid in via contributions sustain payment of a pension based on a higher salary? Confused

I have spoken to pensions actuaries about this as I mix in those circles (professionally) and the overwhelming consensus is that the changes were inevitable and representative of what's happening in the whole pensions industry. There's no sense of a big cover up or the public sector members having been stitched up over pensions. That said, I've only been looking at the TPS.

The union has acheived some good things and the final salary service to April 2015 is still based on final salary at 65. This is a good improvement as usually when final salary scheme are closed the pension is based on the salary at the closing date. They have also obtained an increase in the accrual rate from 1/60 to 1/57 for the career average service.

But I genuinely feel the teaching unions are now spinning this for their own agenda and having read the communications I have to wonder how much they actually understand it themselves or if there's some pensions consultant sitting in the wings creaming off all your union subs to pay its adviser fees. Hmm It makes me feel a bit cynical tbh.

chicaguapa · 31/10/2014 18:20

I don't blame you for being sick of it. But my advice to DH was focus on the pay freezes and crappy 1% pay increases (further eroded by the increasing pensions contributions granted). Because bringing what are considered inevitable pensions changes (in the context of the whole pensions industry) into it is allowing them to hang their 'it's reasonable' hat on the argument and distract people from the real issues.

Andrewofgg · 31/10/2014 18:24

Every public service pensioner signed on the dotted line and so did the taxpayer through someone in personnel - and those contracts must be honoured to the uttermost farthing. It's no different to money in NSI.

Nomama · 31/10/2014 18:24

We're reading different reports, chica.

In 2011 there was 45bn more paid in than out over the lifetime of the TPS and predecessors... the Grauniad did an interesting blog at the time

www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2011/nov/28/pensions-public-sector-pensions

And citywire.co.uk/money/stop-lying-about-public-sector-pensions-say-striking-teachers/a505061

Biased yes, but interesting info (and a nice note re actuaries which my uncle, who is an actuary, would wholly agree with - sometimes his crystal ball is wrong).

CornishYarg · 31/10/2014 18:37

I'm a (former) pensions actuary... For private sector schemes though, so no experience of the finances of public sector schemes. But as chica says, final salary pensions (and career average ones for that matter) are staggeringly expensive. To provide a fairly standard pension (60ths accrual rate, retirement age of 65), a contribution of something like 30% of a person's salary was required in the private sector when I was working a few years ago and it may well be even higher now. And that's before any shortfalls are paid off too.

The public sector will benefit from economies of scale but I would have thought the cost would be in that region. There are various reasons why they cost so much but as chica has said, life expectancy is a big factor - paying pensions for 20 years when it used to be more like 10, for example.

Nomama · 31/10/2014 18:43

Go on.. fess up... your crystal ball is fallible, or was Smile

I am not arguing there needs to be change, that is obvious. But, as far as I am aware, a contract is a contract and I would like someone to accord me the honesty of keeping to the one I signed... and not making me the devil incarnate when trying to change it.

Had the truth been told without spinning me as a greedy bitch taking food from the mouths of babes... I may not have been quite so pissed off.

cheifbrody · 31/10/2014 18:46

People in the private sector are being ripped off with final salary pensions as well.

I would much rather be in the public sector and be ripped off, just one example you i believe get sick pay.

I recently had two weeks of work and just simply didnt get paid [as dont earn enough to get ssp]

lifes tough and basically the rest of the country cannot prop the public sector up.

And striking does nothing, sweet fat nothing. The nurses or teachers or firefighters would have to go on strike for a week to get listened to, and then they would not get what they want.

4 hours is just pathetic.

WillkommenBienvenue · 31/10/2014 19:03

I think my objection to the government pleading affordability as a excuse is the sheer stupidity, the thoughtless, short-sighted unenlightened, mathematically challenged, head in the sand stupidity of assuming that things will always stay the same, peoples health will not improve, the economy won't crash, successive governments won't trash our lofty ideals overnight with fly by night monetary policies that they thought out on the back of a fag packet at the club. They did exactly what those wonga victims do when the bill comes in - hope it goes away.

The people in power had a duty to ensure people's money was safe. No use blaming firefighters and nurses for questioning the clearly lacking accounting skills of those about to take money out of their pockets.

CornishYarg · 31/10/2014 19:04

Yes nomama, an extremely fallible crystal ball; the only thing I could be sure of was that it wouldn't be spot on! But hopefully in the right ballpark Wink

What changes do you think would be fair?

BoneyBackJefferson · 31/10/2014 19:18

As life expectancy is such a big factor then why are people taking the life expectancy of the population in to account surely the TPS should be referenced to the life expectancy of the teachers themselves.

Also the private sector pensions that posters keep going on about might not be in such a bad way if the companies hadn't been raided not only by the government but also the companies hadn't stopped paying into them.

CornishYarg · 31/10/2014 19:24

Boney the TPS may be basing their life expectancy predictions of teachers if they have enough data Scheme-specific life expectancy tables can be created if you have a large enough population (with enough data on deaths for it to be credible). Most schemes simply don't have enough data but the TPS may be one that does.

CornishYarg · 31/10/2014 19:25

Sorry, that should say "predictions on teachers", not "of"

caroldecker · 31/10/2014 19:32

According to the Hutton report, a female life expectancy at 60 is 32 years. Median teacher pay is £35k (same report). Based on a 2/3 pension (forty years working), this is £22k.

With partner benefit and RPI increases, this would require around £500,000 of pension savings.

At 10% contribution, assuming salary remained at £35k throughout, you have invested £140,000. With growth at 5%, this is around £400,000, so a little low.

Therefore a career average scheme with 10% contribution appears reasonable.

However, in the past this was 6.4% (Hutton report), which takes your pot to £270k, and was final salary, so even lower as less contributions in the early years.

The teachers scheme is unfunded, so, like NI, current contributions are used to pay current pensioners.:

It's true and we've never said otherwise, that at the moment more money is being paid out than paid in and the Treasury in that narrow sense is subsidising the scheme. We've also looked at the scheme across it's lifetime and accounted all the money paid in and out. £46bn paid more has been into the treasury than has been paid out. Long term it's £46bn in credit. In current years it's in deficit and next year it will probably be in more deficit because pensions will have gone up by CPI but because there's a pay freeze the contributions won't go up. So it will look more like it's in deficit. That makes the point that you can't look at them on a short term basis. You have to look at them in the long-term. Long-term the NAO and Hutton both say the schemes will become more affordable.

I think all the unfunded schemes taken together have a global deficit of around £4bn a year – clearly a lot of money but it has to be looked at long-term. The amount in tax relief contributions for the 1% richest in the country – people earning £150,000 and up - on their pension contributions per annum was £10bn. That puts it in context.

simontowers2 · 31/10/2014 20:01

Great post caroldecker

Tansie · 31/10/2014 20:55

The thing is- this public sector scheme is what was 'sold' to us. The same as the scheme that was 'sold' to my 80+ year old mother, (via my now 8 years deceased 'wage earner dad') .... who currently receives £17k a year in pensions and has for the past 15 years. Dad was at best a 'middle management' earner. Mum only ever earned pin-money as she 'cared for the family'. And now 'sits', alone, with no penalty, on a £450k 4 bedroom house (but with a strong sense of entitlement, I might add!).

Best of luck to them, and her. However... Why can't they be touched just a bit? Why should I, primarily and yet more massively, my children be hit to pay for that? Why is it not OK to see that our elderly were sold a deal that can no longer work yet not be penalised in any way- yet it's okay to hit me and mine to make up not only that deficit but the one facing my children with their £50k post-uni debt?

Why do we accept one but not the other?

chicaguapa · 31/10/2014 21:57

Good question, but UK legislation protects earned benefits and cannot retrospectively change what's been given. Pension earned from April 2015 is being changed, but nothing before that is being touched.

The Irish don't have this protection and pensions in payment have been reduced over the past few years to pay a pension levy which has been applied to all pensions. I find this even more shocking tbh. Pensioners who have paid into their pensions, started to receive them and then had some of it taken away to prop up the Irish economy. Shock

CatHackney · 31/10/2014 22:26

CornishYarg - I don't know about teacher's pensions, but the one I'm familiar with accrues 1/80th per year, not 1/60th - which is a rather massive difference!

caroldecker - I'm not sure of all your sums, but you seem to be forgetting that employers also make a large % contribution, and as well they should! This is very much part of our earnings.

The projections the government and employers use to evaluate schemes and identify surplus or deficit are entirely based on assumptions about the future - and so, these assumptions can be entirely wrong and worse, they can be chosen to manipulate the findings to lead to the pre-determined policy choices.

CornishYarg · 31/10/2014 22:37

CatHackney Does your scheme with a 1/80ths pension also provide a cash sum on retirement in addition? A lot of public sector schemes do. Whereas the 1/60ths schemes I advised didn't automatically provide cash; individuals have to give up some of their pension if they want a lump sum. The two designs still aren't directly comparable, but are much closer in value than the headline 1/60ths vs 1/80ths suggests.

caroldecker · 01/11/2014 00:32

cat So if you are a teacher earning £35,000 gross, you say your income is £41,000 (14% pension employer pension input tax free), when comaring to other jobs?

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